The edge the tailpiece wire goes over

[endorka]

My apologies for the perhaps obscure title - I've no idea what this part of the double bass is called!

I recently acquired a second hand double bass, a Romanian Stentor 3/4 size. It is pretty good, and is a considerable improvement over the instrument I have had up 'til now, which was borrowed from the university orchestra.

Everything seems ok about the instrument, apart from the bit of black wood that the tailpiece wire goes over. It should be snug against the edge of the double bass, but when the strings are tuned up to tension it comes away from the edge, as in this photo - apologies again for the poor quality!



After examining the part and comparing it with my previous double bass, I concluded that the angle of the bit the wire goes over is too steep, and so filed out a couple of shallow slots in the part in an attempt to make it less steep. This has improved matters, but before taking it any further it would be nice to know if I am doing the right or completely wrong thing! Or perhaps it just needs glued in?

Any advice greatly appreciated!

Thanks,

Jennifer

[clink]

Jennifer,
That little piece of ebony is called a saddle. I recommend you take your bass to a luthier and have it glued in with hide glue. It would be good to have your tailpiece wire replaced with flexible cable also.

[endorka]

Thanks for the reply Clink - it is good to know that it is a relatively simple fix. I'm pretty busy with the double bass at the moment so it would be good to avoid having it languish in a luthiers shop for a time... maybe this is something I could do myself? I'm assuming the glue is of this type?

http://www.titebonduk.com/products_liquidhide.html

I have a H-clamp I could use to apply pressure between the saddle and DB while the glue dries to ensure good contact between surfaces.

What are the consequences of leaving the existing tailpiece wire on for a bit longer? I'm not so confident of doing that particular job myself... the consequences of doing it incorrectly seem, ah, quite serious!

When I have some time I'm not using the DB too much I plan to get it into the luthiers to have some bridge adjusters fitted, probably a good time to get the tailpiece wire replaced also.

Jennifer

[Paul Warburton]

I guess we posted at the same time, Jennifer.
In it, I suggested you not do it yourself. It will hardly " languish" in the shop...not a lot of time involved. If this is not done correctly you're risking possible damage to the bass.
Good luck either way....Do it the right way, and there won't be any luck involved.

[Caoimhín]

Hi Jennifer,

I can't see all too well from that picture but it looks like the saddle is being pulled out from the top of the bass at the edge. This would be a fairly easy and routine fix for a luthier. I would maybe stay away from that titebond stuff - I can't vouch either way but better let a luthier at it. I'm not aware of any bass specialist luthiers in Glasgow but I reckon this is a fix a fiddle luthier could do blind folded (and should not cost the earth!).

As far as the tailpiece wire goes, I'd recommend the 'Velvet' tailpiece wire cos it's fairly cheap and did a great job in unleashing the sound in my bass. I'm sure there's many others do as good a job. Actually, compared to the glue job, replacing a tailpiece wire is fairly straight forward...

Best of luck

[hdiddy]

Don't you have to let the bass sit for at least a day or two for the glue to cure?

BTW: The luthier may have a loaner bass he can lend you while your bass may be stuck in the shop.

[endorka]

Thanks for the replies folks, much appreciated! There is a good luthier in Glasgow who works in The Violin Shop, who has done good work for me before, so no problems there. I think I'm just a bit peeved at the thought of having to go back to the old DB (which I still have) when this new one is much better, especially when busy :-) And yet at the same time, the current state of the saddle worries me. Some thought is required... I am usually quite competent at woodwork etc.

Caoimhín, you are right about the ease of installation of tailpiece cord, if I can use something like this it will be no problem;

http://www.thestringzone.co.uk/categ...ade-in-germany

Where did you get the velvet cord?

Jennifer

[Caoimhín]

Hi Jennifer,

Well.... I was extremely fortunate to have a very pleasant encounter with the sales rep. for Velvet strings and he gifted me a cord. That was in Switzerland though. I've no idea where to buy one but I do know he knocks about this forum regularly and I'm sure would be more than happy to let you know where they're available.

The Wittner cord looks good - grand and easy to install anyway. The Velvet doesn't have those sockets at the end, instead you have to tie the ends together but it's not difficult. I'm terrible with knots and I still managed it quite accurately. It might be a bit more expensive (to be honest I'm not sure??) but far as I know it has a silk core, like the strings, and so should be less stiff than a steel cord so maybe would vibrate more freely. All I can say is it definitely opened up my bass considerably more than the wire coat hanger type thing that was there beforehand.

Hopefully Nuno (the Velvet guy) will chime in soon to enlighten us???

[endorka]

Oddly enough, I've just checked my DB and I think the existing cord is one of the Wittner ones. Hard to say for sure because the light is pretty dim, but it certainly has the threaded cord ends & retainers, and is coated in black plastic.

Jennifer

[dgelting]

I'd be afraid that by further playing and carting around the instrument that it will get damaged more. Hard to tell without seeing it though. I agree that it's best to just get it fixed one way or another. It really seems like it will be a quick fix and not expensive.

[Martin Sheridan]

You shouldn't have filed the grooves.

The plastic tailpiece wires are no good for double bass. You want twisted aircraft cable.

Since you've already filed grooves the saddle may need to be replaced?

The old glue should be cleaned out, new glue applied and the saddle clamped overnight.

I don't like those half cutaways in the top. I'd like to see the extra wood cut out and a new saddle glued onto the top block which is normal procedure.

[clink]

Martin,
Why don't you think the saddle should be grooved? I believe Traeger recommends them FWT'sW.

[endorka]

Originally Posted by Martin Sheridan

You shouldn't have filed the grooves.

Thanks for your comments Martin - yes, I agree that this was a somewhat hasty thing to do from a position of ignorance. However, the grooves I made are not particularly deep, and from a structural point of view I think the angle of the saddle is too steep in any case... it is not far off the vertical. I would have thought a more rounded profile would distribute the forces better and put less strain on the glue joint?

If grooves are a Bad Thing it will be easy enough to sand the entire saddle to an even profile again.

The plastic tailpiece wires are no good for double bass. You want twisted aircraft cable.

Further investigation is needed, but I think the tailpiece cord may be a metal cable coated in plastic, which is presumably ok.

The old glue should be cleaned out, new glue applied and the saddle clamped overnight.

Thanks! Have you any idea how I clean out the old glue? I have a ordered a bottle of the liquid hide, and have my H-clamp for clamping the saddle to the DB.

I don't like those half cutaways in the top. I'd like to see the extra wood cut out and a new saddle glued onto the top block which is normal procedure.

That indeed makes sense - my feeling is that the current method is a little flimsy.

Thanks for all the feedback on my post, it is much appreciated. I'm pretty new to the DB world, but love finding out how all this stuff works, and indeed, what the various bits are called :-)

Jennifer

[Martin Sheridan]

Don't use liquid hide glue, when the humidty rises it will fail. If you can't find granulated hide glue use Knox gelatin, you'll find it at the grocery. Either way use a double boiler and mix water two to one with the glue. Heat it till it melts but don't boil it. About the temperature of hot drinkable coffee will do the trick.

In replay to a comment on notching: there is no need to notch it.

If you sand out the groove you'll probably take too much off? You can scrap the old glue off, make sure you get all of it. You can probably scrap it off with the sharp end of your chisel.
If you are going to remove that little half of wood between the top and the block you'll need a new saddle anyway.

I think at this point, unless you have tools, I'd just have your bass repair person do it. It shouldn't be that expensive for a nice new well fitted and properly glued piece of ebony.

[endorka]

Update!

Thanks Martin, my bass tutor also advised that the half cutaway is not a good thing, and should be seen to by a luthier. I almost have enough bravado to attempt the job myself, but not quite.... not yet. I'm not going to have much opportunity to get the bass into a luthiers before Christmas, but it was disturbing me wandering around and playing with the saddle hanging off like that. So, I decided to go for a medium term repair and get the bass into the luthiers sometime after Christmas.

I had a bass guitar gig today, leaving a window of opportunity to do the saddle repair after my gig last night. Thanks for the advice re: the old glue etc. Martin, I scraped it off using a chisel as suggested and that worked well, and also lightly sanded both surfaces afterwards. I glued them with the liquid hide - I figured that there's not much humidity round these parts this time of year, the repair is only medium term, and if the saddle lifts off again I'd be no worse off than I currently am. Well maybe embaressingly out of tune in the middle of a piece, but, I've got a thick skin :-)

So, it has been clamped for 24 hours, and I've put all the strings, bridge etc. back on. The grooves are already there in the saddle, about the depth of the radius of the tailpiece wire. It seems to be holding at the moment, fingers crossed!

The interesting thing is that the bass does sound different, which I wasn't expecting. It definitely sounds smoother when bowed, a good thing for sure. Perhaps some of this could be accounted for by better alignment of the bridge, which I was careful to do, but I think I had done that part pretty well before anyway.

Jennifer

[Martin Sheridan]

Good Job!
Sounds to me like you could probably do the new saddle too.
Hope the liquid hide glue holds.