End pins?

[Khronic]

How much energy, or sound, is produced or lost by the end pin of a Double Bass?

[bopeuph]

There can be quite a difference from what I noticed.

My teacher (Rick Desgrange, you may know him since you're from the same area) uses a wooden endpin. He showed me the difference between that and his stainless steel endpin. The metal one was MUCH brighter. If you have a large enough hole for your endpin, pick up a hickory drumstick and try it out for yourself.

Nick

[Khronic]

Originally Posted by bopeuph

"My teacher (Rick Desgrange, you may know him since you're from the same area) uses a wooden endpin. He showed me the difference between that and his stainless steel endpin. The metal one was MUCH brighter...."

Nick

I'm thinking of a Bass stand that would act as a second body, or sound enhancement chamber, and be powered by the energy the end pin generates. Think there's enough go juice there?

[goodgig]

Yes, it's called a stage.

[JoeyNaeger]

The end pin can't enhance the sound of the bass at all. The only thing it can do is dampen the basses vibrations. Some end pins do this less, which has lead some to think that some end pins can increase the sound of the bass. The truth is that some end pins decrease the sound of the bass less than others.

[RCWilliams]

Main Entry: en·hance
Pronunciation: in-'han(t)s, en-
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): en·hanced; en·hanc·ing
Etymology: Middle English enhauncen, from Anglo-French enhaucer, enhauncer, from Vulgar Latin *inaltiare, from Latin in + altus high -- more at OLD
1 obsolete : RAISE
2 : HEIGHTEN, INCREASE; especially : to increase or improve in value, quality, desirability, or attractiveness <enhanced the room with crown molding>
- en·hance·ment /-'han(t)-sm&nt/ noun

seems to me damping the right things can enhance the performance of the instrument, amplitude is not the only thing which can be affected by the end pin. timbre and sustain are also affected. quality is more significant than quantity.

[Khronic]

[quote=RCWilliams;4744670]....seems to me damping the right things can enhance the performance of the instrument, amplitude is not the only thing which can be affected by the end pin. timbre and sustain are also affected. quality is more significant than quantity.[quote]

Quality>quantity. Agreed. What things can be dampened to ..."enhance the performance of the instrument,"....?

Thanks

[Khronic]

Originally Posted by goodgig

Yes, it's called a stage.

Yes. Good example.

[Alex Scott]

I looked into this once, my advice is just practice. There are some commercially available foldable things for cellists to sit on and have a sound box, and it may have it's merit, but I got tired of carrying a stool, so I figured that was out of the question.

[JoeyNaeger]

Originally Posted by RCWilliams

seems to me damping the right things can enhance the performance of the instrument, amplitude is not the only thing which can be affected by the end pin. timbre and sustain are also affected. quality is more significant than quantity.

Good point, I was thinking mostly in terms of volume. Regardless, I've found that on my bass, the end pin has very little impact on the sound. My bass has a standard 10 mm stainless end pin, and I also have it it drilled for the laborie end pin. I've tried both carbon fiber and wood angled end pins and I've also tried carbon fiber in the regular end pin socket. The difference really isn't noticeable to me, but on others basses, I've noticed slightly more pronounced affects.

[RCWilliams]

my point about dampening the right things was simply that it can be a way of eliminating an undesireable charictoristic of an instrument. a wolf eliminator works by damping an un desireable frequency on a specific spot on an instrument. oil varnish tends to dampen harsh sounds, graduations and shapes in the instrument are all about encouraging the right sounds and discouraging the wrong ones.

It seems fairly well established that too much extra length projecting into the body of a bass will be too much of a damper, and some who are trying wooden end pins are finding they make improvement in timbre and sustain. when I decided to try some wooden end pins in the shop, I did so on a couple of our better basses. the result was increased ring in the instrument, better sustain, and a deeper and richer sound. these results are audible, not night and day but I could hear them, after spending the last 27 years around some fairly loud wood working equipment.

in the acoustic realm, one generally looks for every edge one can get, and sometimes one finds them in unexpected places, but no bass can play itself.

[shadowhywind]

something else to think about, not sure if there would be a difference, but could there be a difference between hollow end pins and completely solid ones?

[Bob Branstetter]

Originally Posted by JoeyNaeger

Good point, I was thinking mostly in terms of volume. Regardless, I've found that on my bass, the end pin has very little impact on the sound. My bass has a standard 10 mm stainless end pin, and I also have it it drilled for the laborie end pin. I've tried both carbon fiber and wood angled end pins and I've also tried carbon fiber in the regular end pin socket. The difference really isn't noticeable to me, but on others basses, I've noticed slightly more pronounced affects.

That has also been my experience on my basses. The only significant change I've noticed when playing is that caused by coupling with some floors. Carbon Fibre was the big rage for a while and it did nothing for my basses or than reducing the weight when I carry my bass around. I also have noticed no change when I removed some old all wood endpins and replace them with high quality metal rod endpins. I have to wonder if there are not other factors involved here such as the quality of fit or possibly the tailwire since it frequently changed or modified at the same time as endpin is changed.

However, I do keep an open mind on this because there are people here that I respect who claim there is a noticeable difference caused by a particular endpin. Rick Williams is one of those people and he has offered my one of his new endpins. I have promised him that I will try it when I have some free time to work on my own bass and will report back.

[Khronic]

Originally Posted by Alex Scott

....There are some commercially available foldable things for cellists to sit on and have a sound box, and it may have it's merit,....

Any idea what they're called? Were do I look for one?Thanks to everyone, I,ve learned a great deal so far.

[lhoward]

Originally Posted by Naimishbridge

Any idea what they're called? Were do I look for one?Thanks to everyone, I,ve learned a great deal so far.

I recall that they were just called resonance boxes that could be tuned to perform like any Hemholtz resonator. I found this one reference for a patent on a design:

http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/5920020-fulltext.html

There was some discussion on them for double bass and cello a few years ago, as I recall, but as yet, I've been unable to relocate the reference.

Lloyd Howard

[lhoward]

Naimishbridge,

I managed to find the web pages that addressed the "Bass Boxer" as it is termed in the two Japanese URL's below, and there's no English translation on the second URL.

http://home.m08.itscom.net/iga/music_e.html

http://home.m08.itscom.net/iga/music_j.html

Except for the patent reference in my first post, I've found nothing else. It's interesting to note that the patent was issued in 1999, while in the first URL above, the text above the photo states: "The photo shows a bass-boxer which I invented in 2002.". Interesting.

The patent page seems to describe the device shown in the photos in the pages of the two URL's above.

Anyone else have any additional information on this design? Please chime in. I've seen nothing like this offered for sale in the US. Although a patent exists, the patent owner doesn't seem to have taken any action on making it a commercial product offering. That noted, the pictures indicate that it shouldn't be too difficult for individuals to fabricate a similar device for personal use.

Lloyd Howard

[arnoldschnitzer]

Originally Posted by RCWilliams

It seems fairly well established that too much extra length projecting into the body of a bass will be too much of a damper, and some who are trying wooden end pins are finding they make improvement in timbre and sustain. when I decided to try some wooden end pins in the shop, I did so on a couple of our better basses. the result was increased ring in the instrument, better sustain, and a deeper and richer sound. these results are audible, not night and day but I could hear them, after spending the last 27 years around some fairly loud wood working equipment.

I was pretty skeptical about this wooden endpin fad. Rick was kind enough to send me a couple to try out. Firstly, the design is simple and ingenious, because you can simply yank out the steel pin and insert the wooden one. Easy to A/B the two. And the player can still use his wheel, as the endpin plug does not need to be changed.

Well, we've been fooling around with these things in the shop and I must report that there is indeed a difference in sound, and it's not really that subtle. In the two basses we've tried it in (both very fine instruments) we heard a similar change: the basses sounded fatter on the bottom end and a little smoother with the wooden pin. The steel pin sounded a bit more defined, especially arco. And we felt the arco response was easier to control with the steel, but the tone was more lush with the wood. Right now one of my clients is playing with it in the Met Opera pit, as he was quite taken with the sound when he put it in his 18th century Italian.

I give Rick and his guys kudos for de-mystifying the wooden end pin by coming up with such an easy way to try it out.

[Bob Branstetter]

There are a lot of folks around here that I wouldn't have believed if the message above was from one of them. However, if Arnold Schnitzer says it works, then there can be little doubt about what Rick William's wood endpins can do. I'll have to make a visit to my friends at KC Strings the next time I venture North on I-35.

[PocketGroove82]

Interesting thread.
I always though the only resonating box for my double bass WAS my double bass.
The instrument seems to have sounded pretty good over the past couple hundreds of years without the need for sitting on a crate.

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by PocketGroove82

Interesting thread.
I always though the only resonating box for my double bass WAS my double bass.
The instrument seems to have sounded pretty good over the past couple hundreds of years without the need for sitting on a crate.

You have had the same Bass for a couple of hundred years? What diet are you on?

Just one question I have, or maybe two. How does the wood change in a hall played on a normal wooden stage, not in a pit?

And, is it possible that with the wood you are getting less overtones like you do with a Mute that also makes some Basses sound smoother with the bow?

If this wood thing is better Arnold, do you have one for my Hart Bass I can try? Is one endpin better for some floors or rooms/pits and another better for other things using the same Bass?

Was that 3 or 4 questions? Ok, I'm done for now..