Experimenting with different woods for bridges, any suggestions?

[Big B.]

Unfortunately I split one of the feet on my adjustable bridge while trying to move it the other day (DOH!) and since I have skills and tools I am going to make my own replacement bridge. This leads me to my question: I love to use non standard and exotic woods on my electric basses and I have always wondered about the usability of non standard woods on UB as well. As the availability of suitable wood decreases it will be in our best interest to look at the other materials that are available to us.
I have many types of wood available and I want to make 6 - 10 bridges of different materials and do a comparison of the sound between each. All bridges will be made as close as possible to the original bridge. Once the bridges have been compared I can then experiment with thickness and mass for the different materials. I have access to most any type of wood, domestic or imported. Anybody have any experience with bridges made from other woods or have any suggestions on materials to try? These are some of the woods I am considering:

Maple (as a control) Myrtle
walnut Bubinga
cherry Wenge
ash Beech
elm Birch
mahogany ziricote
poplar cocobolo

[George700DL]

Originally Posted by Big B.

Unfortunately I split one of the feet on my adjustable bridge while trying to move it the other day (DOH!) and since I have skills and tools I am going to make my own replacement bridge. This leads me to my question: I love to use non standard and exotic woods on my electric basses and I have always wondered about the usability of non standard woods on UB as well. As the availability of suitable wood decreases it will be in our best interest to look at the other materials that are available to us.
I have many types of wood available and I want to make 6 - 10 bridges of different materials and do a comparison of the sound between each. All bridges will be made as close as possible to the original bridge. Once the bridges have been compared I can then experiment with thickness and mass for the different materials. I have access to most any type of wood, domestic or imported. Anybody have any experience with bridges made from other woods or have any suggestions on materials to try? These are some of the woods I am considering:

Maple (as a control) Myrtle
walnut Bubinga
cherry Wenge
ash Beech
elm Birch
mahogany ziricote
poplar cocobolo

No expert here, but I found cherry and walnut too soft in general (I have not tried them for a bridge). I like both, but I don't think I'd use them for a bridge.

Isn't birch sort of comparable to hard maple? That might be a good option.

George

[forester]

the "what" is up you..in fact you should already be starting on the second one...fashioned correctly and consistant in form. i have it from good sources that poplar won't last through the third set..but it might surprise you.

[bejoyous]

While not a luthier, I have cut the wings off my bridge to brighten up the sound. I can attest to why it is called Rock Maple because it was @#$@# hard to saw through!

I guess whatever wood you choose should be quite hard so it won't bend or the strings won't wear the grooves down and it can transmit the vibrations to the belly the bass. Softer woods might cause the legs to splay out when the pressure is applied as well.

[JtheJazzMan]

Originally Posted by bejoyous

While not a luthier, I have cut the wings off my bridge to brighten up the sound.

Interesting, I have wondered about their effect on tone. Do the wings have a phasing type effect on those frequencies?

[uprightben]

If you are determined to re-invent the wheel, go ahead and throw out the coarse grained woods. Then look at the Janka scale and throw out everything softer than hard maple. I think the woods on your list that will be left will be a couple crazy dense exotics, which may well have a muting effect.

A note on non experts trying to innovate the design and material of the double bass. While the popular perception is that the design of violin familiy instruments hasn't changed in 400 years, they have. When tropical hardwoods became available during the colonial era, makers experimented with them. That is why we have ebony parts on these instruments now, those parts used to be maple. While I hate to boo-hoo innovation, realize that you are rehashing options that have been weighed by generations great makers, who have all concluded that hard maple is the best material for a bridge.

That said, best of luck to you.

[derft]

Sounds like a fun project to me. I would try Macassar Ebony (very hard), Wenge (not as hard as Macassar but harder than maple), the maple control and Myrtle (Less hard than maple). I didn't look this up so I could be wrong, I am going on experience and memory. I like myrtle for building. For what its worth some of the best sounding instruments I have made were Myrtle. In addition, I would get some reclaimed maple that was under water for years as another sample. Some builders swear by this reclaimed wood. My Stelling banjo has a rim made by Tony Pass from reclaimed wood and it sounds great. Would love to know how it works out.

[james condino]

If an idea sticks in my head, I generally try everything I can to work it out, regardless of what the naysayers tell me. In 30+ years as a luthier, I've built out of almost everything I can get my hands on, sometimes very successful, other times not successful at all, but it allowed me to get it out of my head and go beyond that point. I'm of a strong opinion that you can do as much with design as you can materials; the two are not independent of each other. You've also got to take into consideration individual variability among specific pieces of wood. I've used Douglas fir that spec'd out 40% more dense than western bigleaf maple and I've also got Michigan hard maple that is more dense han some of the softer varieties of macassar ebony.

When you look at the exotic imports ask yourself, is my goal structural, tonal, or visual. A lot of times, we get sidetracked by the intense visuals. Another luthier friend of mine likes to describe that with a thick, lazy southern drawl, " It's like goin' to a girly bar and fallin' in love for all the wrong reasons...". Bubble wrap, blistered heavy quilted maple is a great example- looks amazing, but is a nightmare to work with , very unstable, and regularly sounds like a wet piece of cardboard, yet I've had a lot of customers who pay a big premium for the look.

If it is primarily a visual bling thing, then try another approach. I can make a simple piece of maple look more wild and exotic that the best piece of macassar you'll ever find in a lumberyard simply by using very refined technique with an airbrush.

I encourage you to go beyond in your thinking and experiments, but also do it for a reason and with a plan- and don't forget to share it here with us. Start by chopping off those goofy "dew claws" on the legs of your bridge!

j.

[Big B.]

Thank you James, and by the way I was looking at the thread on your bass last night and that is an amazing instruments form so many many design standpoints. It is amazing!
Funny how people get uptight about trying to change anything. I live with a viola/violinist who swears that maple and sycamore are THE only woods that are suitable for building string instruments. These instruments all have such a long tradition that people very dogmatic about what they are tought/believe. While maple and spruce are surely great tonewoods, the masters builders also selected wood that was readily available in their part of the world. The recent wave of beautiful instruments made of walnut, willow, chestnut among others has really opened peoples ears to the possibilities.
I am a luthier but I focus on BG at the moment with plans to expand towards acoustic basses as my equipment and knowledge expand. In looking at acoustic guitars, you see the finest instruments made of a wide range of materials. Everything from maple and mahogany to Ebony and african blackwood. It stands to reason that basses, bridges, bows can be made of these materials as well.
I have a bridge that has to be replaced, a big stack of wood and a shop full of tools. Easy and costs me only time. If you guys think this is weird what will you say when I show up with a six string UB? (one of my long time wants that I am trying to put together at the moment) As our technique expands on bass and playing gets more virtuosic, it is in our best interests to consider changes that can be made to our instruments. If you havent seen the thread from James's bass go find it. That bass solves alot of problems that bassists face such as cost of internal repairs, transport and most importantly, comfort and playability.
I do think it is time for luthiers to wake up and see that the material they are using is becoming less and less available and at a lower quality. If that trend continues, and obviously it will, I think it is in our best interest to look for other options. Thanks for the input folks, positive or negative. Thats the grease that keeps the world turning around here. Progress may be slow but I will keep you guys posted.

[neilG]

Has anyone made or seen a bridge of which only the feet and string contact points are wood and the rest is metal? The possibilities would be endless for shapes. Not to mention it would never warp.

[CPike]

Originally Posted by Big B.

Thank you James, and by the way I was looking at the thread on your bass last night and that is an amazing instruments form so many many design standpoints. It is amazing!

I can't seem to locate the thread referenced here, can anyone link to it directly?

thx, cdp

[George700DL]

Originally Posted by CPike

I can't seem to locate the thread referenced here, can anyone link to it directly?

thx, cdp

james' bass build

[uprightben]

Well, I guess I'm the negative one trying to hold you back I actually am a big fan of people innovating the design and materials of the double bass, there are several design issues that have yet to be addressed to my satifation. The bridge material is just not a problem in terms of function, availability or sustainablity. To me a creative mind would do better to focus on things like better bracing on a flat back, some way to reduce rib cracks caused by perpenicular grain direction of the blocks, portability to name a few. James' gorgeous bass addresses many of those issues in a very elegant way IMHO, but he is a very experienced builder of acoustic instruments with a mastery of tradition techniques, and it is worth pointing out that his bass is spruce and maple with a maple bridge.

Just to prove my experimental woods credentials- the first violin neck I carved was out of poplar because I thought it would be a great wood to build instruments out of. It was a complete flop, poplar is a pain to carve, too soft and splinters easily. I might make a custom toilet flush out of it...

[Big B.]

No sweat uprightben. Cautionary is perhaps more appropriate than negative anyway. I dont think that other woods are going to be better than maple, I just feel that some woods will impart a different tone to a bass. Maybe some woods produce a better pizz sound and response than maple but not as good for bowing. While that would not be great for most hybrid or classical players it could be great for those players who specialize in jazz. It is also possible that a wood that is bright or harsh on most basses would improve an instrument with a dull unfocused sound or vice versa.
If I wasnt in need of a new bridge I wouldnt be worried about it, but it does open up possibilities for experimentation.

[james condino]

Ben, I wasn't giving you or anyone else a hard time; more just trying to be encouraging. 'Good point about my spruce and maple bass and even better about some of the other areas to address. If you poke around my ancient website, you'll also see that I build out of a LOT of non-traditional materials (Note to mods and thought police: 'not trying to self promote in any way; rather I'm trying to cite specific answers to a direct, on topic discussion. Show me a completely recycled instrument or any of the other non-trads like a striped ebony mandolin somewhere else, and I'll use those for examples) .

I can also confidently say that I've made five instruments that were such complete non-traditional failures that they wound up in the fireplace ( estimated waste of 1200+ hours). The bass shown in the link is actually an incredible exercise in restraint for me. The next one will push it a lot farther, but with a specific intent. I really wanted to make the ribs out of d. nigra ( Brazilian rosewood), but if it was a failure, it would have been at least a $2000 crapshoot.... Above everything else, do it with a plan and a reason....

j.

[arnoldschnitzer]

I think elm and wenge might work just fine. You'll want to look for quarter-sawn pieces. Elm tends to have wild grain, so try to find a piece that's relatively straight. Tight grain is a good idea with any wood you try. Good luck; report the results.

[Big B.]

My biggest curiosity has always been the use of exotics for ribs and backs. I really like the idea of the Brazilian Rosewood bass. Looking at the world of high end acoustic guitars you see the finest instruments made a plethora of woods from maple to African Blackwood. It stands to reason that these woods could be effectively used for instruments in the violin family as well. Dont think I want to pay for enough Blackwood to build a bass though.
When people say that aesthetics dont matter I wonder why Poellman takes the time to do wonderful purfling and carving on their basses? Why take the time to carve a lions head instead of a scroll? Because it looks great and because we love our basses. I wouldnt play an instrument that sounds or plays badly only because it looks good but a bass made of Brazilian Rosewood or Cocobolo would be stunning to behold.

[Big B.]

Originally Posted by arnoldschnitzer

I think elm and wenge might work just fine. You'll want to look for quarter-sawn pieces. Elm tends to have wild grain, so try to find a piece that's relatively straight. Tight grain is a good idea with any wood you try. Good luck; report the results.

In an earlier post Uprightben brought up avoiding porous woods, which would throw out the wenge. What difference would porosity make with equally dense woods?

[james condino]

Ribs are one thing, but there is no way I want to try and carve a back out of Brazilian rosewood or cocobolo!!!!

j.

[Big B.]

the most expensive pile of scrap ever.