Fingerboard "Scoop"

[MN Chris]

I just purchased my first db - a Chinese "Prima" bass from FreedomGuitar. I will be taking it to a local luthier for additional setup.

My fingerboard is "scooped" (when a string is pressed down at the very bottom of the fingerboard, there's a gap in the between the string and the fingerboard in the middle of the fingerboard). I've read on TalkBass that this is how it's supposed to be. But what is the correct amount of the scoop? In other words, how can I tell if the fingerboard will need to be planed either in the middle to increase the scoop or at the end to reduce the scoop?

[Francois Blais]

It depends on your playing.
The harder you dig in, the more scoop you're likely to need, so the strings don't rattle on the FB.
The E side has more scoop, reducing toward the G.
The E string's oscillation has the biggest amplitude.
There's no rule of thumb I think.

[MN Chris]

OK. Thanks.

[Matthew Tucker]

one rule of thumb that seems to work quite well as a starting point is that when you press the string to the fingerboard at both ends you should see a gap about the width of the string.

this is very approximate but most basses I have played have been set up with about this much scoop.

[MN Chris]

If I press the string to the fingerboard on the bridge end only, I can stick my pinkie between the strings and the fingerboard at the middle of the fingerboard. I have somewhat high action at the nut, so some of that string height can be attributed to that. But still, from your "rule of thumb", I think my scoop is more dramatic than what it should be.

Thanks for the information.

[Bob Branstetter]

Originally Posted by Matthew Tucker

one rule of thumb that seems to work quite well as a starting point is that when you press the string to the fingerboard at both ends you should see a gap about the width of the string.

this is very approximate but most basses I have played have been set up with about this much scoop.

Matthew's rule of thumb is as good as any, but the fact is that the luthier has to weigh in several things to arrive at the optimum amount of scoop for each individual's instrument. First on the list is the type of music played. Most pizz players will require less scoop than an arco player and frequently insist that the board be as flat as possible without buzzing. Arco players need more scoop since the string swings a wider arc when bowed. Next, the type of strings must be considered. Gut stings move more than steel strings and need more clearance. Finally, how does the bass "feel"? Some basses seem to have more string tension than others and may not need as much scoop as a bass with lower tension. Learning to properly dress a fingerboard for the individual customer is one of the more difficult segments of a luthier's education, but even with years of experience, there is still a certain amount of trial and error involved to get it right.

[jallenbass]

I have found that 2mm works for me with just about any setup or music style.

[arnoldschnitzer]

Originally Posted by Bob Branstetter

Most pizz players will require less scoop than an arco player and frequently insist that the board be as flat as possible without buzzing. Arco players need more scoop since the string swings a wider arc when bowed.

In NY I find the opposite to be true. Pizz players in these parts pull like crazy, occasionally causing adjacent strings to collide! I find it easier to set up a classical player's bass. Incidentally, camber should be measured with the bass under tension, as it can change significantly compared to when unstrung. Also, the low spot on the fingerboard needs to be in just the right place, and this is perhaps even more important that the amount of "scoop".

[jallenbass]

Originally Posted by arnoldschnitzer

Also, the low spot on the fingerboard needs to be in just the right place, and this is perhaps even more important that the amount of "scoop".

What is the right place? Or is that variable from player to player and bass to bass?

[Bob Branstetter]

Originally Posted by arnoldschnitzer

In NY I find the opposite to be true. Pizz players in these parts pull like crazy, occasionally causing adjacent strings to collide!

You're right. I forgot that NY players can't or don't use amps in a lot of places. Around here, the only guys that play pizz without an amp are the few that do strolling gigs. The majority of my regular customers are pizz players who use steel strings. For the really fussy ones, I plane the board dead flat before gradually adding the amount of lateral depression needed with sharp wood scrapers while frequently checking both the depth and taper with a high quality straight edge with a light bulb on the opposite side for contrast. A lot of guys use planes for this job, but I've never been able to get the same degree of accuracy and control I can with a good scraper.

[arnoldschnitzer]

Originally Posted by jallenbass

What is the right place? Or is that variable from player to player and bass to bass?

Generally, it's a little before the octave. But on most basses you'll find the deepest spot at the fourth or fifth. This is because the low spot migrates toward the nut when you string the bass up, due to bending. Also, over time the neck bends most in the first position area or so, because it is thinnest and most flexible there.

[arnoldschnitzer]

Originally Posted by Bob Branstetter

A lot of guys use planes for this job, but I've never been able to get the same degree of accuracy and control I can with a good scraper.

I had exactly this problem until I invested in a Lie-Nielsen adjustable mouth block plane (regular, NOT low-angle). In my shop we grind about a 32 degree bevel, then a secondary bevel at the blade tip of about another 4 degrees or so (by eyeballing it). This strong angle helps the blade stand up to ebony, though each sharpening is only good for one fingerboard dressing. We make the blade razor-sharp and keep the throat almost touching the blade. A very prominent luthier once told me "never touch a fingerboard with a plane". He felt a plane would dig up and tear the fingerboard, and until I worked out the method above, I agreed with him. Jeff B. has a method which uses big planes first, and he does a great job. Care to expound, brother J?

[Bob Branstetter]

Originally Posted by arnoldschnitzer

I had exactly this problem until I invested in a Lie-Nielsen adjustable mouth block plane (regular, NOT low-angle).

Have you tried this plane on graphite or other super hard fingerboards? I make fingerboards from Pakkawood and even my Lie-Nielsen 212B scraper plane doesn't work all that well on those.

[Mark Carlsen]

Originally Posted by Bob Branstetter

Matthew's rule of thumb is as good as any, but the fact is that the luthier has to weigh in several things to arrive at the optimum amount of scoop for each individual's instrument. First on the list is the type of music played. Most pizz players will require less scoop than an arco player and frequently insist that the board be as flat as possible without buzzing. Arco players need more scoop since the string swings a wider arc when bowed. Next, the type of strings must be considered. Gut stings move more than steel strings and need more clearance. Finally, how does the bass "feel"? Some basses seem to have more string tension than others and may not need as much scoop as a bass with lower tension. Learning to properly dress a fingerboard for the individual customer is one of the more difficult segments of a luthier's education, but even with years of experience, there is still a certain amount of trial and error involved to get it right.

Well I respectfully disagree on the scoop as far as Arco and Pizz. It's alot like NY here in the Boston area ,and I for one can make most basses that are dressed clean for arco buzz like crazy pizz..We are talking I think mostly on the E string here, right? I know that the G can be a challenge when you lay into it heavy w. the bow.
My feeling is the string goes more side to side w. arco and more up and down as you pizz it.Of course touch and where you pluck the string [ At the end of the fingerboard or up a few inches] has alot to do w. how you set the Camber...we do have alot of strong bassists around here.
I am learning alot from this great thread, any thoughts from some other luthiers...All your different approaches to dressing a board I find very helpfull.I was into using Glass very early in my first years w. my shop.

[Bob Branstetter]

Originally Posted by Mark Carlsen

Well I respectfully disagree on the scoop as far as Arco and Pizz.

I really don't see that we have a disagreement. All that counts is making the customer happy, and they are as different as the basses they play. Trying to generalize anything about basses is a slippery slope.

[Mark Carlsen]

Originally Posted by Bob Branstetter

I really don't see that we have a disagreement. All that counts is making the customer happy, and they are as different as the basses they play. Trying to generalize anything about basses is a slippery slope.

This is true, I guess it is my experience that it is harder to get a board clean/buzz free for a pizz player than an arco player.Take a bass that buzzs on the E string ,like low G on the E string...Pluck that note and then bow the same note.There is more motion w. pizzacato than arco, hence more likely a chance of buzzing.You stated there is more motion w. arco..That was my dissagreement.

[Jeff Bollbach]

People ask me if a bass is set up for classical or jazz and I just laugh. There's no scoop, lot's of scoop, and inbetween. All depends on the player as has been eloquently said before. Plenty of classical guys pull hard just like the some jazzers. Mark is onto something when he mentions a difference in the movement arco vs. pizz. One tool I use a lot in my shop and couldn't live without is a white china marker. Very useful with fingerboard work. You can mark the under side of a string above a note, play it and see where the string is hitting. But where it comes into play here is the marker can reveal visually the cross section of the vibration of the string. Mark the e lets say about 8 inches from the end of the board[towards you]. Play the string with the bow and you will see an even ellipse parallel to the board. Then pzz it and you will see an uneven event. It'll sort of be an ellipse and it will start to move out of parallel and there will tend to be a spike downwards to the board. This is the real problem especially on dressing the e. You can have the board literally perfect and if this spike is larger than the clearance you will have a buzz. This china dot can also help the player visualize the direction in which he is pulling the string.

[toman]

I'm sure it goes both ways, but it seems to me like most orchestra guys would want more scoop, because they seem to pull those big pizz notes up, while jazz guys are pulling to the side more. Although, if you play more solo work, the lower action might be desireable... I guess it's all just a comprimise as to what works best for the combination of music you play.

[Mark Carlsen]

A very nice explanation of what I was trying to say, Jeff...I stole your China Marker idea a few years back,don't use it on every bass, but on the tough ones it does help alot.
What do you use on these tough figured type boards such as striped Ebony or swirly Rosewood? Even some of the Shens I have been selling have less than managable fingerboards.I know this is a pet peeve w. you Jeff. Scrapers seem to work better for me than my razor sharp block plane.I hate inconsistancies in fingerboards.

[Bob Branstetter]

Originally Posted by Mark Carlsen

.You stated there is more motion w. arco..That was my dissagreement.

It all depends on what type of strings each is using. IMO, a gut string is going to move more than a steel string. If you don't agree with that, then we will have to agree to disagree.