Fingerboard wear

kurt · #1 11-20-2007, 12:57 AM

I've had a lot of problems with fingerboard buzzing over the years. I've had at least 5 different luthiers work on my bass with varying results. I have maybe a heavier attack than some people so I think it causes more buzzing than someone who plays with a lighter attack. I also slap a lot which causes grooves to form in the fingerboard over time. I prefer lighter gauge stings but find the buzzing gets worse. does string diameter affect buzzing as well as tension? I had Corelli 370 M strings on my bass and liked them but the buzzing was out of control. Would a low tension string with a larger diameter such as eurosonics buzz less due to the larger surface area contacting the fingerboard? And would a low tension string with a large diameter cause less wear on the board? I have the feeling the corelli's would dig into the board more than larger softer nylon strings. Does anyone have any experience with this? I'm having a hard time finding a luthier in my area that can do a good job on this as well, I've had my fingerboard replaced once already because someone ruined it. Any advice would be appreciated.

Matthijs · #2 11-20-2007, 02:23 AM

This is a tricky one, normaly i'd say lower tension will give you mor buzz, because lower tension string have a larger amplitude. You aparently have a not only a heavy attack, but also a heavy left hand grip, causing the fretboard to wear. I really wouldn't know if this would get worse with a heavier tension, or the other way around. Anyway I'd guess you'd better try it in the other direction: more tension.

robobass · #3 11-20-2007, 02:30 AM

Is your board good, dark, hard ebony? I hate to say it, but it sounds like you may have an inferior FB. I do wear grooves into my board near the nut, but over many, many, many years. Some strings probably cause more wear than others, but none should be causing problems like this. Since getting a top notch board installed might be difficult for you because of location, and because of the type of playing you do, might I suggest a rather radical option? (I can feel the bass gurus already circling for attack!)

Go the Jaco route and coat your board with boat epoxy! I'm not being facetious. You mix it up (2-part: resin and hardener) paint it on in layers, sanding in between, and sand it out very fine when finished. If done right, you will end up with a very hard surface that will be maintenance free, and maybe give you a sound ideal for your playing style (bright and lots of sustain). I did this to a Fender neck and played roundwounds on it for years with no functional wear.

You will no longer be able to have your board dressed in the traditional fashion, but if your board is poor quality to begin with, you aren't risking much. Of course I would never recommend this for a symphony player with a Gagliano, but there is some precedent for this approach. A lot of new student basses come with boards with a hard plastic coating. and some people have been experimenting with Carbon Fiber fingerboards with reported success. One problem this won't solve, however, is warpage do to crappy neck wood or a bad neck/board glue joint. I wouldn't do this if that has been a problem.
Robobass

Bob Branstetter · #4 11-20-2007, 11:16 AM

Kurt - I can't help but think that your fingerboard is bad. Unfortunately, there are a lot of "ebony" fingerboards being sold that are of poor quality with the grain running every direction but straight. I've had to repair several school basses with this kind of "ebony" fingerboard. I planed and resurfaced one of them 4 times in one year and finally ended up replacing the board. This one was being played by high school kids in school orchestra. High quality straight grained ebony boards are expensive, but are really a bargain in the long run. Even in a worse case scenario, a high quality ebony board should go for years before getting the problems you described.

Robo - Bad Idea! A Fender bass fingerboard is one thing and a doublebass fingerboard is an entirely different animal. Those plastic coating you mentioned on new student basses are a pain in the ... when you have to repair them AND they do need repairing far more often than was needed in years past when almost all student basses came with real ebony fingerboards

kurt · #5 11-20-2007, 01:08 PM

My Bass isn't too bad of a bass. It's a 40 year old German fully carved bass, no tag but looks just like a hofner. The board that was on the bass when I bought it was the original board which looked decent to my eye, I'm not a luthier, but it was thick and looked dark and even. A couple different "luthiers" decided that it needed work when I took it in to get other things worked on. When I got it back from them it was worse. One guy even took to much of the side to side curve out of it making it difficult to bow the strings individually. By this time I didn't trust anyone around here to do it so I flew to VanCouver with it and had a reputable guy there work on it. It wasn't to bad after this but still had a slight buzz near the heel joint on the D and G strings. When I showed him this he said I was playing too hard for the light gauge strings I had on. Could I be just overplaying the string? I don't think I dig in THAT hard. Soon the buzzing worsened in the areas described above and I took the bass to Toronto and had a new board put on. The new board seems ok for now but still has a slight buzz at the heel on the G string with the Medium gauge Obligatos. I'm can't remember at what point I noticed the grooves on the board. They were worst at the heel on the D string. The bass does take a beating though. My touring band plays probably 150 to 250 shows a year and a lot of them are high volume. I slap about 30% of the time and bow about 10% of the time. All these luthiers tell me they don't want to put too much scoop in the board. Should I demand that they do considering my desire for low tension strings and playing style? Slapping everyday with heavy strings gets pretty demanding on my right hand which I injured a few years back. I really think its the slapping which is causing the rapid deteriation of the board. I don't want to quit doing it but the buzzing drives me nuts. Maybe I need to learn to dress the board myself.

Bob Branstetter · #6 11-20-2007, 03:42 PM

If you like light gauge strings and want more scoop in the board then the luthier should be willing to do what you want as long as you tell him you won't hold him responsible if makes the bass harder to play in some positions. However, are you saying that you are observing actual wear/ruts on the board or just the buzz?

The first thing I would do is to put a good straight edge on the fingerboard long enough to reach from just below the nut to the end of the board. Shine a light from behind so that you can measure the depth of the scoop particularly in the area where you are having problems. Look to see if the scoop is a nice gentle curve with the max depth at a point near about 1/2 of the string length (not the fb). If everything looks ok to you, have your luthier measure the current scoop when you get to the shop and ask him to take off about 1mm more. Since you've had so much trouble with this, insist that he put a straight edge on the fb again before you take the bass home just to make sure that you got what you asked for. If that helps but doesn't totally eliminate the problem, you may have to repeat the procedure or consider other strings.

Unfortunately, planing fingerboards is not really something in the realm of DIY. It takes a long time to learn how to do it properly. You just have to hope that your luthier has done enough basses that he knows what he is doing instead of just guessing what will work.

kurt · #7 11-20-2007, 05:26 PM

Thanks for the help guys. Right now the new board is ok, a couple very minor buzzes but nothing too serious. I will ask for more scoop next time. I did actually see some grooves forming especially under the d string around the heel. The only other guys that I've talked to that have experienced this are Rockabilly or country guys that slap. That's why I was wondering about which strings might cause more wear. It just seems to make sense to me that a low tension string with a large diameter and made out of nylon might slow the wear. I was using the corelli 370 M strings and Helicore lights when I noticed the grooves. I have Medium Obligatos on now but the fingerboard is too new to tell if its deteriorating as fast.

Bilko · #8 11-27-2007, 12:21 AM

Kurt - I have the same problems and frustrations with fingerboards! Chuck Treager's book says to put about 1/8" scoop in a fb. I knew a guy who plays slaps most of the time and he got grooves around the heel too and he was considering nylon strings. He also used higher action.

I have a stick bass, with a lower string bend at the bridge, that has a buzz. It currently has about 3/32" scoop. I might increase it to 1/8" because of the low string tension.

Silversorcerer · #9 11-27-2007, 01:25 PM

I agree with Bob that the FB planing is really tricky. I was afraid to let anyone else do mine, but I'm good with a plane and I know what I want. The problem with planing is that once it is gone, it is gone. One of the key things to realize, and it surprises me how many fingerboards I've seen that clearly were scooped most at the midpoint of the length of the fingerboard as opposed to farther up closer to the octave point of the string, is that the point of maximum scoop should be just below the octave point. If you draw an exaggerated model of a string in position vibrating at maximum amplitude fixed higher (bridge end) at one end above a plane (fingerboard), you will see the relationship. The point where the string is most likely to buzz moves as you stop the notes higher up. In fact you can make a progression of drawings representing shorter stops and see how the slope of the curve changes. Ideally, it is not a constant slope, but rises faster toward the end of the fingerboard than it does going toward the nut. The faster rise above the octave makes it easier to play up in thumb position.

The only place where I have seen a mathematical analysis of this is here:http://www.nrinstruments.demon.co.uk/InstMain.html
I found this link originally through Bob Gollihur's bass links page. Scroll down and there is a good explanation and a graph that exaggerates the shape over the length of the fingerboard.

I followed this kind of plan when I set up my bass but I have almost no scoop. Certainly no where close to an eighth of an inch. By the time I read Traeger's method, I had already read the above article and it seemed much more carefully derived.

On the issue of string gauge/tension: Heavier strings tuned to the same pitch will have less amplitude and therefore be less likely to buzz.

kurt · #10 11-27-2007, 02:43 PM

I realise from experience that higher tension strings are less likely to buzz. But how about actually causing damage to the board? Wouldn't a lower tension string, when slapped, strike the board with less velocity? How about strings with a larger diameter, wouldn't they dig in to the board less due to the larger surface area to distribute the force?

Silversorcerer · #11 11-27-2007, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kurt

I realise from experience that higher tension strings are less likely to buzz. But how about actually causing damage to the board? Wouldn't a lower tension string, when slapped, strike the board with less velocity? How about strings with a larger diameter, wouldn't they dig in to the board less due to the larger surface area to distribute the force?

Couldn't say about the velocity and the slap. As far as digging in and diameter, it is a small difference. Do you see a worse problem currently with the G and D strings than the A and E?

Bob Branstetter · #12 11-27-2007, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silversorcerer

The only place where I have seen a mathematical analysis of this is here:http://www.nrinstruments.demon.co.uk/InstMain.html
I found this link originally through Bob Gollihur's bass links page.

The concept of the logarithmic spiral is as interesting today as it was 25 years ago or so when I read about it for the first time, but you would probably have to program a CNC machine to achieve it's mathematical precision and as soon as you put the tension on the neck, the shape changes. That's what makes planning a fingerboard so difficult. You have to be able to anticipate the change that tension will make as you plane it without the tension.

kurt · #13 11-28-2007, 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silversorcerer

Couldn't say about the velocity and the slap. As far as digging in and diameter, it is a small difference. Do you see a worse problem currently with the G and D strings than the A and E?

Now that you mention it, it is always the D and G that start to buzz. especially the G.

Bilko · #14 11-28-2007, 11:50 PM

Silversorcerer said:

I've seen fingerboards that clearly were scooped most at the midpoint of the length of the fingerboard as opposed to farther up closer to the octave point of the string, is that the point of maximum scoop should be just below the octave point.

WOW! That worked like magic on my fingerboard! I made a thin wedge to help me find the low point and I moved the dip to about the octave, then used a 5" straight edge to take out the bumps and the strings vibrate more evenly without buzzing the fb near the finger-stop and the neck feels more lively.

Many thanks!

Silversorcerer · #15 11-29-2007, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Branstetter

The concept of the logarithmic spiral is as interesting today as it was 25 years ago or so when I read about it for the first time, but you would probably have to program a CNC machine to achieve it's mathematical precision and as soon as you put the tension on the neck, the shape changes. That's what makes planning a fingerboard so difficult. You have to be able to anticipate the change that tension will make as you plane it without the tension.

I plane with a rabbet plane that is only 3/4 inches wide. You guessed it. I plane with the neck under tension and move one string out of the way at a time. And I only plane under the strings. With a 5-string I am planing at about 80% tension, so the difference is small. And I am constantly putting the string back in place and up to tension to check the progress. I'm not doing the ideal logarithmic spiral, and I think it would be great to have one CNC'd, but what I get works really well and I have gotten many compliments on the set-up of my instrument.

I know many folks use a block plane, but I find that a Stanley convertible 3/4 inch rabbet plane that is narrow takes off enough. I can see no need for a 2 inch wide plane when the FB is arched and the shavings are about an eighth of in inch wide at best. And it eliminates the guess work of planing the board with no tension.

Bob Branstetter · #16 11-29-2007, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silversorcerer

I plane with a rabbet plane that is only 3/4 inches wide. You guessed it. I plane with the neck under tension and move one string out of the way at a time. And I only plane under the strings. With a 5-string I am planing at about 80% tension, so the difference is small. And I am constantly putting the string back in place and up to tension to check the progress. I'm not doing the ideal logarithmic spiral, and I think it would be great to have one CNC'd, but what I get works really well and I have gotten many compliments on the set-up of my instrument.

I know many folks use a block plane, but I find that a Stanley convertible 3/4 inch rabbet plane that is narrow takes off enough. I can see no need for a 2 inch wide plane when the FB is arched and the shavings are about an eighth of in inch wide at best. And it eliminates the guess work of planing the board with no tension.

I guess I'm a slow learner. It took me a lot more than 1 bass fingerboard before I got good at it and I had a master luthier with over 30 years experience looking over my shoulder.

Silversorcerer · #17 11-30-2007, 05:38 PM

I had set up a lot of guitar necks, bridges and nuts before I tried a DB. I have also worked with planes and similar tools most of my life. It was not my first experience with a neck and fingerboard. Many of the same relationships apply. I too am working with a Master luthier. He is consulted, instructs, and evaluates every repair I make. The difference is his specialty is lutes. It leads to different approaches.

Bob Branstetter · #18 12-02-2007, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silversorcerer

I had set up a lot of guitar necks, bridges and nuts before I tried a DB. I have also worked with planes and similar tools most of my life. It was not my first experience with a neck and fingerboard. Many of the same relationships apply. I too am working with a Master luthier. He is consulted, instructs, and evaluates every repair I make. The difference is his specialty is lutes. It leads to different approaches.

Obviously!

Pentabass · #19 09-02-2008, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silversorcerer

I plane with a rabbet plane that is only 3/4 inches wide. You guessed it. I plane with the neck under tension and move one string out of the way at a time. And I only plane under the strings. With a 5-string I am planing at about 80% tension, so the difference is small. And I am constantly putting the string back in place and up to tension to check the progress. I'm not doing the ideal logarithmic spiral, and I think it would be great to have one CNC'd, but what I get works really well and I have gotten many compliments on the set-up of my instrument.

I know many folks use a block plane, but I find that a Stanley convertible 3/4 inch rabbet plane that is narrow takes off enough. I can see no need for a 2 inch wide plane when the FB is arched and the shavings are about an eighth of in inch wide at best. And it eliminates the guess work of planing the board with no tension.

This is very interesting - are there any other people using this technique?

What model rabbet plane do you use? It will probably have to have a shallow angle?

I was also wondering: how do you prevent damage to the other strings, as you slide past them with the rabbet plane?

Treyzer · #20 09-02-2008, 03:11 PM

I want to thank all the expert luthiers who provided such great insight into neck scoop. I posted a similar thread a few weeks ago and got one guy telling me how to set up a Fender neck. I bought a bass in Southern California however, I live in Hawaii. Based on what you guys are saying, I suspect my neck was scooped a bit to much for conditions out in the islands. What would be the fix? Have the neck re-planned with less scoop?