frustrated and out of ideas

[jimmyduded]

ive been working on violins(yes i know this is a db forum but i thought you guys would know the baisic conecpt and how to fix it) iam currently repairing a violin that had the neck block broken out of everything, not glued to the back top or ribs, i reglued it with hide glue, re set the neck and proceeded to string it up, alothough the neck is not sitting quite where id like it, i tried shimming it(which resulted in the block severing from everything due to tension again, ive tried sanding it to give it a better surface to stick, still nothing, the neck is not sitting or gluing properly to the block, so now to my question, is there a clamp i can buy for neck gluing, or a jig i can make, ive been using a wood clamp but it doesnt clamp well enough to hold it at the proper angle, im repairing this as a deal(i got a 1860 friedrich glass violin for repairing a few junkers for this guy i know) he said to take as long as I need so theres no deadline, i want it done right, so if there is a clamp out there, or a gluing method please let me know, i almost picked up the white glue today and i shudder to think that i almost used it

[Matthew Tucker]

I think the secret is a great fit and nothing but good hide glue. you might have to rebuild the block.

Stradivarius, of course, would have nailed it together

[Heifetzbass]

Are you using a good caul to help support the clamp? There aren't many square surfaces on that repair... you might want to go looking at MIMF.com or maestronet.com. There is a wealth of info on this kind of stuff there.

HTH,
Brian

[Matthew Tucker]

Jimmy, is your neck mortise joint a perfect fit? Has any oil got into the joint?

[Bob Branstetter]

Jimmy -
On your signature you have:

apprentice for riccardi violins
riccardisviolinshop.com

Many years ago, I worked as an apprentice to a well known violin maker in Kansas City. My definition of apprentice may be different than yours, but apprentice basically means that you are learning a trade and another person is teaching and guiding you. Why are you not asking Mr. Riccardi these questions? Hands-on demonstrations are far better learning tools than trying to describe a situation on an Internet forum. If you can't ask Mr. Riccardi questions like these, exactly what are you apprenticing and what is he teaching you?

[Martin Sheridan]

Are you using granulated hide glue? Liquid hide glue? What mixture are you using and how are you heating it and to what temperature?

[Darren Molnar]

Hey Jimmy, got you're pm. I'll write back this week.

Clamps have an unfortunate name, the name implies that it's purpose is to exert pressure to hold things in place. In reality, esp. in violin repairs, you should not rely on the clamp in any way to put pressure on, squeeze, or align anything, ever. Their only purpose should be to prevent movement as the glue is drying. Hold, not squeeze, not make fit.

This means that long before the glue gets heated up, you're parts need to fit perfectly, with no gaps or wiggle room anywhere. And you're neck should fit in at the proper angle with no need of any help from any clamp in any way.

And gather up all you're sandpaper today and burn it in you're back yard. They aren't helping you. Knives, chisels, planes, scrapers, files. all you need.

Start over again. Throw away the old block and fit a new one to start. And fit the block to the neck, not the other way around. Wash, not sand, the old glue off before fitting and glueing anything.

I have to agree with bob here, it's odd that you're not being taught this at work. It's actually pretty basic, repairs 101 stuff. What is he getting you to do there? And much more importantly, are you watching closely what he is doing, and asking good questions?

[jimmyduded]

as far as mr.riccardi goes, i only see him saturdays, i got the violin sunday so ive been working on it, i felt pretty confident with all of my work up untill it came time to test it out, ill bring it to him saturday, i wanted to do it then get his over all opinion on where i can improve my work, where do I get wood for blocks? my neck doesnt have a snug fit, i think a new block is the only way to go, i would never use liquid hide glue because in my experience its junk and doesnt hold too well, i only use hide glue, another problem is the ribs where they would glue to the block are bent straight, i dont want to push them down and clamp them due to the fact it might crack the rib and then ill really be in trouble(i dont have ribs, linings, blocks, a mould or a bending iron) if I was getting paid for this violin i would totally overhaul it, first of all it doesnt have a button, or the four corner blocks, but cash is kinda tight because being an apprentice is my only job and i dont have time for another job to pay for the one i have now, my freidrich violin(if it sells for alot) will fund all the things i need to start building, but untill then im kinda stuck in a predicament, as soon as someone tells me where i can get blocks, ill ask mr riccardi how to shape them etc

[Bob Branstetter]

Originally Posted by jimmyduded

but cash is kinda tight because being an apprentice is my only job and i dont have time for another ...

Exactly, what do you do on your apprentice job?

[jimmyduded]

repair basses, violins, rehair bows, fit bridges, make adjustable bridges, make patches, glue patches, fit patches, im sure theres more things im forgetting

[Bob Branstetter]

Originally Posted by jimmyduded

repair basses, violins, rehair bows, fit bridges, make adjustable bridges, make patches, glue patches, fit patches, im sure theres more things im forgetting

So Mr. Riccardi trusts you to do all of these procedures in his shop and yet ...

[jimmyduded]

well in his shop i could probably know out this project in 5 or 10 minutes, but i dont have the proper equiptment and such, i dont want this to reflect badly on mr.riccardi, this is a personal project(i made the deal with the guy and it was a project to do in my workshop) i just decided to ask on here to see if there was a proper way to do it, i got alot of good adivice on this and as soon as i find out where to get block wood ill do it right. id rather keep this thread on topic and talk about ways to get the neck angle right and glued with a good fit rather than talk about what i do and how im an apprentice(as in im learning and dont know everything), next time ill think before posting

[Matthew Tucker]

Originally Posted by jimmyduded

... im learning and dont know everything, next time ill think before posting

The best advice you could give anyone.

[Bob Branstetter]

Originally Posted by jimmyduded

id rather keep this thread on topic and talk about ways to get the neck angle right and glued with a good fit rather than talk about what i do and how im an apprentice(as in im learning and dont know everything)

I guess we were all 16 years old once.

[jimmyduded]

15, i asked for advice and received a personal attack from you bob and matthew, calling me a liar, saying i dont have an apprenticeship, im fed up with this forum and all the crap i get, i asked a simple question, tried to make it as detailed as possible so there were no questions what the problem was and what i recieved was mocking of my words, intelligence and apprenticeship
- jim

[jimmyduded]

Trip to Luthier

and to anyone who doesnt believe i work at riccardis shop, send a pm to christine, we talked in the shop for maybe two hours, this will be my last post in this section of the db forums, im not going to stand for absurd questions and my character called into question

[Bob Branstetter]

Originally Posted by jimmyduded

15, i asked for advice and received a personal attack from you bob and matthew, calling me a liar, saying i dont have an apprenticeship, im fed up with this forum and all the crap i get, i asked a simple question, tried to make it as detailed as possible so there were no questions what the problem was and what i recieved was mocking of my words, intelligence and apprenticeship
- jim

Jimmy - I seem to recall that you made a similar reply the last time a question came up about the work you claim to have done. I remember when you first joined TalkBass that you claimed you were building basses in your basement, then you started asking questions that most of us learned the first week we worked in a shop. Based on some of your posts, you don't own even the very basic tools required to do violin family luthiery work. The only example of your craftsmanship that you have shown us was a photo of a very crude bow frog made from a piece of Cherrywood. Now you wonder why anyone would question your apprentice work when you spend at most one day a week in Mr. Riccardi's shop. I know from personal experience how much time and work is necessary to acquire the skills you claim to have mastered. I don't question that you are working one day a week in Mr. Riccardi's shop. I simply asked what kind of work you are doing. You could be sweeping the floors on Saturday and still be considered "working" there. I would think that you would be proud to tell us what skills Mr. Riccardi has been teaching you rather that acting indignant that anyone would dare to question any of your many claims of expertise.

[jimmyduded]

i recieved a pm from matthew calling me a liar baisicly, thats who the questioning that im working there was directed towards, ill post pictures of my shop in a few minutes, i also have never "claimed to have mastered" anything, if i did i would not be asking you guys, your question about skills seemed to be rather like a joke about me, as in , he would let you work on these things? yeah right. the bass i started was turned into a repair for my friends archtop guitar, it was not even the right kind of wood, it was maple, and at that time i had only been in mr riccardis shop for one day

[jimmyduded]

shop



stubai chisels and new kennedy toolbox

[Matthew Tucker]

What I wrote in PM to Jimmy, trying to help him get the best out of the forum:

"Jimmy

I (and many others here) am/are trying to take you seriously but Bob's right, what you write here makes it very hard to believe you actually have an apprenticeship.

You hand out advice as if you are a seasoned luthier, but the things you say and ask make us wonder what experience you DO have?

When you started posting here you said you were making a double bass and had nearly finished parts of it, but that project has all but vanished, with no evidence that you have done anything actually. What is the reality of that?

Its OK to be a learner and ask questions, but in that case don't pretend to be something you are not. People see through that.

If you are going to riccardi's shop one day a week then to call that an apprenticeship is stretching the reality a bit.

Are you studying at school? Are you unemployed?

No shame in either of those at all, but it's better to be honest about it. What you write here just doesn't ring true at all, even if it is.

best regards

matthew"

I wrote in PM, of course, so that the exchange would remain discreet and frank, but since I am now calling him a liar baisicly, I thought I might as well show Bob how *I* did it.

It's a pity Jimmy won't be posting here any more, as that is not what anyone wants.