gluing questions

thelonerangers · #1 07-10-2007, 07:57 PM

i have a double bass that my high school let me have. anyway, i have been thinking of getting back into playing. the neck came loose I'm assuming it has to be reglued, what kind of glue do i use?

**Matthew Tucker** · #2 07-10-2007, 08:26 PM

Traditional hide glue, nothing else will do.

thelonerangers · #3 07-10-2007, 08:55 PM

where can i get this glue?

**Matthew Tucker** · #4 07-10-2007, 08:58 PM

Oh, lots of places. Do you know how to use it? How about you fill out your profile so we know where you are?

John Wentzien · #5 07-10-2007, 09:05 PM

stewmac.com

Silversorcerer · #6 07-11-2007, 09:07 AM

Don't get the liquid stuff. Get the flake stuff that you cook up. Do you have any pictures of the neck area? Usually regluing a neck is a bit tricky, you know.

**Damon Rondeau** · #7 07-11-2007, 09:55 AM

...but has anyone seen the latest issue of Fine Woodworking, in which they publish the results of their (pretty decent, conducted by respectable engineers with respectable materials testing backgrounds and equipment) glue study? Here's the controversial finding: no difference in strength (or substantive differences at all, really, in terms of performance) between liquid hide glue and "pure" hide glue prepared fresh in the workshop. This finding came as a surprise to the study author and, presumably, the editors of FW.

They didn't test for gluing ebony per se, but they did include ipe (if I recall correctly) in their research design as their "oily" exotic hardwood -- i.e., the kind of stuff that will give you trouble gluing if you lack experience gluing the stuff. Again, if I recall correctly, the only situation in which hide glue showed a reduced level of performance was in gluing ipe.

I should note further that the strength testing revealed practically all modern glues, used properly, have far more strength than they usually require.

DISCLAIMER -- I am in no way suggesting to our young poster that he shouldn't use hide glue, or that liquid is better, or anything else. Hide is used because it alone is easily reversible. I'm only posting this because it's relevant, it's new information and, well, I'm curious about the reaction...

**Damon Rondeau** · #8 07-11-2007, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thelonerangers

where can i get this glue?

In Canada I would say Lee Valley. Stew-Mac is great but they are pricey like crazy. Haven't compared hide glue direct, though.

Jake deVilliers · #9 07-11-2007, 10:39 AM

I have tried Franklin Liquid Hide in the distant past, and while it made an acceptable joint, it really has no resistance to heat. I sometimes use it to glue nuts for that very reason.

It would be a disastrous waste of time to put a neck or fingerboard on an instrument with the stuff.

The Lee Valley hide glue is far too strong and consequently fast-setting for instrument work.

I mostly use 192 gram hide from Luthier's Mercantile because I don't use huge amounts in my repair work. Its fresh and of appropriate strength and comes in a great plastic container.

Or you can go to Bjorn Industries for 5 lb cans.

http://www.bjorn.net/

Its also a great place to learn about the history, uses and properties of hide glue.

**Damon Rondeau** · #10 07-11-2007, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jake deVilliers

I have tried Franklin Liquid Hide in the distant past, and while it made an acceptable joint, it really has no resistance to heat. I sometimes use it to glue nuts for that very reason.

It would be a disastrous waste of time to put a neck or fingerboard on an instrument with the stuff.

The Lee Valley hide glue is far too strong and consequently fast-setting for instrument work.

I mostly use 192 gram hide from Luthier's Mercantile because I don't use huge amounts in my repair work. Its fresh and of appropriate strength and comes in a great plastic container.

Or you can go to Bjorn Industries for 5 lb cans.

http://www.bjorn.net/

Its also a great place to learn about the history, uses and properties of hide glue.

That study didn't test for anything beyond type of glue, type of wood and "goodness-of-fit" of the joint. Nothing about the properties once the glue has set. In addition to the heat resistance you mention, Jake, they might have tested such things as resistance to various substances (acid, whisky, gasoline, etc.) and stability once set (i.e., creep), but they didn't go that far.

I'm aware of things like the Bloom testing and stuff, but I note that Lee Valley doesn't publish any of that info in its sales bumpf. My experience with their hide glue has been that it sets really damn fast and I guess you've just told me why...

Frank Ford has lots of good hide glue info at Frets.com -- used to, anyway.

**Damon Rondeau** · #11 07-11-2007, 10:56 AM

While we're at it and on the topic, here's another set of hide glue questions -- how old exactly is too old for hide flakes/pearls? Does method of storage matter? And what happens to the glue when it's too old? Does it lose strength, does it not set properly, does it smell bad...?

Silversorcerer · #12 07-11-2007, 11:18 AM

Well, I have used hide glue for different things with good results, but I have also used a ton of Titebond and Elmer's carpenter's wood glue over the years (not on musical instruments, but with most other woodworking) with great strength and longevity of the bonds. But those are hard to reverse and more difficult to clean up and re-glue should that be necessary. There had been some reports of the liquid hide glue giving up in humid warm situations, but perhaps the newer formulations are better? I'd have to read up on how those tests were done and under what conditions real carefully.

I know according to some reports the bass I have is put together with white glue. It's tough to confirm because the job was real neat whatever they used and nothing has come apart yet in spite of the bass getting knocked around a good bit. So there are some non hide glues that perform. They are probably just less reversible at repair time.

**Damon Rondeau** · #13 07-11-2007, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silversorcerer

So there are some non hide glues that perform. They are probably just less reversible at repair time.

When it comes to general woodworking, ALL modern glues perform extremely well (if applied properly, etc.) However, when it comes to general woodworking, I would never use hide glue. For heaven's sake, why would you go to to the bother when Titebond exists, which is cheap and effective and reliable (and almost waterproof in its type III formulation)? Or -- my preferred glue -- Lee Valley's 202GF? Or West System epoxy? We're talking luthiery, though, where reversibility is a prime desired characteristic, and that's exactly why hide glue is numero uno. If that weren't a desired characteristic, I suspect modern luthiers would be no different than any other modern woodworker who -- bet on it -- probably has never used hide glue.

This isn't one of those situations where the modern world has lost something universally better when it moved on from hide glue to something more modern. It's a luthiery-specific situation where hide still suits our work best.

**Damon Rondeau** · #14 07-11-2007, 12:06 PM

...and lest this drift too far away from the OP's original question, I'd say too that removing and re-setting a neck ain't exactly the easiest thing to do. That neck has gotta go on straight and clean and you've got limited working time with the hide glue. It's certainly not impossible but it's not exactly a job you'd recommend to a beginner, either. My experience in this area is limited to kinda cheap and extremely cheap Chinese bass-shaped objects. I didn't feel like I was risking a lot by doing the work.

Silversorcerer · #15 07-11-2007, 12:15 PM

I just checked on my source for flake hide glue. This place sells it in several different gram strengths in 100 gram packages. The different gram strengths give you an indication of permanence. I was able to get 195, 315, 380, and 480 from Luscombe Violins. I believe they are in Canada. I would think for regluing a neck join, you'd want the high gram strength stuff. Perhaps the lower strength for gluing the table and something in between for a nut or fingerboard.

Damon, in a picture frame shop I worked in during the early 1980's that did nothing but a whole lot of custom framing and matting jobs we used hide glue for the frames for a long time. We also used it to bond on the backing paper. It was much less expensive than Titebond at the time and we used if for the same reversibility factor. In some cases it is good to be able to get an old frame corner apart cleanly. I know from some of the other employees that are still there that they switched to Elmer's Carpenter's Wood Glue several years ago, which is similar to Titebond. In a high production environment, keeping a glue pot going is not as much of an inconvenience as if you are just using it sporadically. In our business, these were in constant use as were the air compressors, drills, saws and everything else. The glue was very cheap and the owner had 2 barrels of cheese hank sized hermetically sealed packages of gelatinous hide glue. It was a life time supply. Whenever it was cut open it hardened just like the flake stuff. I think it was commonly used for putting furniture together also. There are many alternatives now.

**Damon Rondeau** · #16 07-11-2007, 12:34 PM

Getting it in bulk cheap -- there's another good reason. I still remember the nice new tape measure I lost 30 years ago to the bottom of a large freshly-opened barrel of white carpenter's glue (Elmer, TiteBond, etc. -- basically all the same stuff) at my old furniture factory job. I couldn't have lost my tape measure in one of those cheese-sized hanks of hide...

I guess another good general reason to use hide is for the fast set. It's the old-fashioned version of CA glue.

Uncletoad · #17 07-11-2007, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jake deVilliers

I mostly use 192 gram hide from Luthier's Mercantile because I don't use huge amounts in my repair work. Its fresh and of appropriate strength and comes in a great plastic container.

Or you can go to Bjorn Industries for 5 lb cans.

http://www.bjorn.net/

Its also a great place to learn about the history, uses and properties of hide glue.

I love that guy.

The 192 is great. I think LMI's is from Bjorn too.

I buy it in 10lb bags from Bjorn and they last a year. I don't think that stuff goes bad for a long long time. I've never had any bad stuff yet.

I heard about that Fine Woodworking article from one of my guys. I'm not surprised at the results. It's still not going to get me to use Hide from the bottle. There are lots of ways to make small batches of Hide Glue that are simple and quick enough.

I use nothing else but hot hide glue for structural stuff and repairs. It's my favorite glue. I don't use Titebond any more for instrument repairs. The combination of thermoplastic creep and inability to rework joints glued with it make it of little value to me. There are many who disagree with that.

Jake deVilliers · #18 07-11-2007, 04:05 PM

"There are many who disagree with that."

Not me Phil. It took me a while to learn the rhythm but once I got it down its my favourite wood glue.

The giant initial grab threw me off at first but its almost the best part now. Whether its cleats for a crack or the bridge on an acoustic guitar I love the way you put it in place and Whammo! its there. No more sliding around on that slippery white stuff.

Not that there isn't a place for many different adhesives in the shop - just that hide & wood are so good together.

**Matthew Tucker** · #19 07-11-2007, 05:38 PM

Being just gelatine, made from skin, I think its allergy-free, too. Always a good thing. I've seen what epoxy and other glues do to other peoples fingers. Luckily, not me yet. The only time I use pva now is when i need a quick smear to glue paper or card, and I use epoxy when gap filling is needed. But mmmmm ... hide glue ...

arnoldschnitzer · #20 07-12-2007, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damon Rondeau

We're talking luthiery, though, where reversibility is a prime desired characteristic, and that's exactly why hide glue is numero uno.

My belief is that hide glue is good for luthiery for its tonal as well as reversibility characteristics. Hide glue dries stiff and hard, good qualities for transfering sound. PVA glues and epoxies generally dry into a less-hard, slightly gummy substance which logic tells me is not good for the transfer of sound. I have reset many necks that were set in Europe using PVA (white or yellow) glue. When reset with hide (and a good-fitting joint) the instrument's response and tone always seem to improve. When bass tops are attached with PVA there are always the inevitable drips and oozes left behind. These gooey chunks are no good for tone, IMHO.