The Great "How High Does My Action Really Need To Be?" Thread

[SteveFreides]

Background: I own a carved Eberle from http://bassesonline.com. My instrument is appropriate to my level and quantity of playing. I mostly play as a volunteer in community bands (I usually show up and read the concert), the occasional show in the pit orchestra at the community college where I'm a music teacher, the occasional jazz/standards gig, but I'm a music teacher, not much of a player. (I play and teach lots of stuff - guitar, piano, French Horn, and at the college I'm mostly a classroom teacher: music theory, ear-training, history, and the like.) I've got that $300 carbon fiber bow and love it.

Setup: The setup they do at bassesonline leaves me puzzled in a few ways. First of all, their fixed bridge is _way_ high according to my way of thinking, and with their adjustable bridge, I have mine set as low as it can go and it still could go lower as far as I'm concerned.

I read that I should have my action _high_ if I want my bass to sound best, or is that loudest? I confess that I just don't get it. I'm not a bluegrass/country player, just someone who reads charts or plays from a fake book. My needs are best described as orchestral and jazz.

So, how high does my action really need to be? (And did I mention that the curve of the bridge makes it tough to hit the D string without hitting neighboring strings? Only the D string.)

In particular, I want to know if I should be toughing it out with a higher action and/or toughing it out with living with minimal clearance for the D string - or if I should be looking for another setup?

Thanks in advance.

-S-

[funkythumb]

If you can't walk underneath the strings, they're too low. :-) Just kidding!!
Though you're a full-time music teacher, you are a part-time player which means that your hands aren't spending enough time on the fingerboard to warrant high action. Yes, high action can improve the tone and volume of the bass but I've heard lots of good tone from low strings as well.
Because of your situation, I'd set the action at a medium to low action to prevent hand injury and also allow you walk up to the instrument and play it without much pain.
My recommendation is to take the bass to local repair person and have them give you a good, medium set-up and adjust the bridge. You've tried it on your own, now pay someone get tweek it for you.
blessings

[Gary Lynch]

For me, higher action brings the best tone and volume (for pizz). But if I do not play daily or I get injured, the high action is difficult to flow with. Myself, I would need to be at it a few hours a day to really be able to dig in when it's way up there.

And, as a player ages (you get old!) arthritis and less muscle mass can cause a player to revert back to lower action. That's how I see it. I am non arco............all pizz.

One of my old bass player buddies told me; "Do it while you can".

[Paul Warburton]

+1 on Funky's response.

The "general" consensus is to keep the height as low and comfortable as you can without string buzzing, arco or pizz, when really digging in.
The problem with your D string.....do what Funky said.

[drurb]

I have a slightly different angle on this. First, I agree that the best thing you can do is to get the bass to a luthier who'll do a proper setup. It sounds like there are problems with the current one.

Second, I think we should put some numbers on this. What are your actual string heights? For example, mine are about 7.5mm at the G and about 10.5-11mm at the E. Some would call that high. I'm an old(er) guy and have no problem with those heights even after I return to the bass from a short trip. Gary-- what do you mean by "way up there"? What I'm asking is what folks here call "really high string heights."

Third, string height really is a matter of style of play. I think we can make a good guess given what you've said but what is your preference? There's just no right answer.

Finally, I'm a little puzzled by Paul's prescription. I think the key to what he said was "when really digging in." I could lower my strings substantially and not have them buzz but then I couldn't dig in the way I want to.

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Get the bass to a good luthier and get adjuster wheels put on the bridge, and have him/her check the cut of the bridge. Some pizz only players like a flatter arc (I'm one of these), which can make bowing the D string difficult. If you play arco, get a bridge arc that is comfortable for you, and then learn to play it. As far as your string height, the adjuster wheels will allow you to alter it to match where your playing is, what the seasons are doing to you bass, etc. Then you can play comfortably.

I find that there is a very fine line between "high enough to get the sound I want" and "low enough that I don't worry about injuring myself by playing". That line moves around depending on my chops. If I'm practicing/playing regularly, I can generally go higher because I have a much greater feel for the minute details of the way the bass interacts with my body. If my playing or practicing time becomes sporadic for whatever reason, I often feel like it's better to work my way back up to that balance point. Once you get to a luthier and get what you know to be a "normal" bridge arc and (with the adjusters) the ability to raise or lower that arc, you can then just listen to your body for the rest.

[SteveFreides]

Drurb, where are you measuring? End of the fingerboard to the bottom of the string? Never done this before.

Chris, I have an adjustable bridge already, mentioned that in my original message, and it's set all the way down now.

Everyone, thank you and keep those replies coming.

Because of lifetime spent playing guitar and electric bass before starting upright a few years ago, I'm much better at pizz, so I can't tell if the D string issue is me or the bass, but since I've already had more than one experienced player telling me their D string is easier to get at consistently than mine is, I'm thinking it's at least some the curve of the bridge that's at issue here.

The guy who did the original setup told me something about the curve of the bridge being fixed, based on the curve of the fingerboard - is that true, and it is some kind of problem to vary slightly?

-S-

[drurb]

Originally Posted by SteveFreides

Drurb, where are you measuring? End of the fingerboard to the bottom of the string? Never done this before.

The measurement is made at the end of the fingerboard and is the distance between the surface of the fingerboard and the bottom of the string. Having these measures will help folks here to evaluate objectively what are your heights. One player's "really high" can be another player's "medium."

It has been my understanding that the curve of the fingerboard should match that of the bridge but, as far as deviations go, I defer to the luthiers around here.

[Paul Warburton]

Originally Posted by drurb

Finally, I'm a little puzzled by Paul's prescription. I think the key to what he said was "when really digging in." I could lower my strings substantially and not have them buzz but then I couldn't dig in the way I want to.

I was trying to keep it as simple as possible.
What a weird idea.

[drurb]

Originally Posted by Paul Warburton

I was trying to keep it as simple as possible.
What a weird idea.

I know, I know-- didn't mean to complicate things. I was trying to slip in the "style" element. Indeed, as low as possible without buzzing while allowing you to dig in the way you want to according to your style of play.

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by SteveFreides

Chris, I have an adjustable bridge already, mentioned that in my original message, and it's set all the way down now.

Everyone, thank you and keep those replies coming.

Sorry about that. Height can still be an issue even with adjusters. On my main bass, after a few years of settling in, I had to raise my adjusters to the point where I worried about running out of thread to keep the height where I wanted it. My luthier ended up adding a shim to the bridge to give me some more room to adjust, and it's been fine since. This phenomenon can work both ways. If you'd post your string heights in mm from the bottom of the string to the board at the end of the board, many people here could tell you whether the heights you have with the adjusters all the way down are reasonably normal.

The guy who did the original setup told me something about the curve of the bridge being fixed, based on the curve of the fingerboard - is that true, and it is some kind of problem to vary slightly?

Yes and no: Yes, generally the shape of the bridge is cut in relation to the shap of the board; No, it's not a problem to vary from this if that's what the owner of the bass wants. In my case, I like the D string lower than what is considered "normal" and the G string a bit higher because this helps balance out the volume of the two strings when played pizz. An arco player would likely want more bow clearance between the two.

[fingers]

Not to complicate things but my bass gets a different kind if tone and a different feel depending on the string height.

Right now I am into more 'old school' tone. Heavy attack with quicker decay. To achieve that with my bass but still have the benefits that Spiros afford I have the strings pretty high (probably like drurb), the strings are old (3 years or so) and I have a Stark E and Mittel A, D, G. Kinda on the heavier side.

I tried Weichs on it at one point with lower strings and it sung like a bird.

I sat in at a jam the other day and the house player had a ply, strung with Weichs, low strings, and an Underwood. The exact opposite of what I go for in a tone. Once I got in touch with my inner Ron Carter (I wish) I got comfy.

Point is 'good tone' is subjective.

DURRL's comment about how in shape you are is VERY important. I have been pretty busy of late and been on a good shedding streak. The setup I have feels good. Earlier this spring I was on vacation for a week and the first gig back hurt. My fingers were sore (though no blisters) and I felt like I had been breaking concrete.

Good luck.

[Eric Hochberg]

Originally Posted by SteveFreides

Chris, I have an adjustable bridge already, mentioned that in my original message, and it's set all the way down now.
-S-

You can have a luthier take some more off the legs so you can set it lower. A lower bridge will also mean less string tension on the top and you may find your strings a bit looser feeling.

[Jake deVilliers]

Hey Steve, you can get an idea of where your string height could be here: String Height Poll

[Mark Perna]

Originally Posted by fingers

Point is 'good tone' is subjective.

DURRL's comment about how in shape you are is VERY important. I have been pretty busy of late and been on a good shedding streak. The setup I have feels good. Earlier this spring I was on vacation for a week and the first gig back hurt. My fingers were sore (though no blisters) and I felt like I had been breaking concrete.

I have a comment and a point.

Comment: Isn't that nuts? You've been playing for decades. For hours of every day. You go away for a week. A lousy week. And when you get back, it's like you haven't played in years.

Point: 'good tone' is subjective. ABSOLUTELY. Your tone is your voice. It is totally individual. It is the first thing that anyone hears when you play just as the sound of your voice is the first thing other people hear when you talk (even before they hear what you are saying). For the OP, you need to decide what you want to hear and tailor your set up to that. To a degree, you'll sound like you no matter what the set up but you can certainly make it easier to get that sound with the right set up for you. That means figuring out what kind of strings you want to use and how high off the board you want them.

I used to play with a medium string height with Spiro Mittels. Now I use a relatively low action with gut strings. With Mittels, low action meant I'd get way more buzzy sustain than I wanted. High action sounded great but was hard to get around on and it doesn't matter how great the bass sounds if you can't play on it without tripping all over yourself or worse, hurting yourself. With gut, high action loses definition and focus in the tone. Low action and I lose acoustic volume but I'm almost always amplified anyway so who cares. Too low action and the bass chokes so there is a balance point. Like Chris, I also have my bridge cut down so the D is a bit lower. It makes bowing a little harder but I'm a pizz guy anyway (I started bowing again a few months ago and then stopped after discovering the rosin on the strings dampened my tone too much plus I like to occasionally pluck below the board and if you get your fingers into the rosin, it gets everywhere and makes playing pizz REALLY hard).

mark

[fingers]

Originally Posted by calivox

Comment: Isn't that nuts? You've been playing for decades. For hours of every day. You go away for a week. A lousy week. And when you get back, it's like you haven't played in years.

Yup. We should start a support group.

I do like the fresh feeling I have in my mind though.

The physical part definitely sucks but as I've said before you can't run a mile to train for a marathon. It was probably a 4 hour hit as most of mine are. I play pretty aggressively and I don't know how to let up.

[drurb]

Originally Posted by Chris Fitzgerald

...If you'd post your string heights in mm from the bottom of the string to the board at the end of the board, many people here could tell you whether the heights you have with the adjusters all the way down are reasonably normal.

What a fine idea!

[shadygrove]

Originally Posted by SteveFreides

...Because of lifetime spent playing guitar and electric bass before starting upright a few years ago, I'm much better at pizz, so I can't tell if the D string issue is me or the bass, but since I've already had more than one experienced player telling me their D string is easier to get at consistently than mine is, I'm thinking it's at least some the curve of the bridge that's at issue here...

I have the same issue with my Eberle ply that I had them set up with an adjustable bridge... it's very difficult to bow an A or higher on the D string as the string will be almost depressed to the level of the A and G strings. In all fairness to Ideal Music, I had no clue when I bought the bass I would want to play arco and asked for a setup suitable for bluegrass... looking forward to getting some nut and bridge work and also fingerboard planing if needed in the very near future. If I had it to do over I would have gone without their setup and applied the $100 to getting it set up locally.

That said, other than the minor setup issues, I've been very happy with my Eberle. The price was right and I like the tone. Heck, if I come into some money soon I'd be tempted to get a carved Eberle too before they all sell out.

I think when I measured my string height it was about 9-10 mm to the bottom of the E string with the adjustors up about 2 mm, so maybe 8 mm with it flat... I usually play acoustic and will drop the bridge down when playing with a mic.

[ThomsonKneeland]

Originally Posted by fingers

Not to complicate things but my bass gets a different kind if tone and a different feel depending on the string height.


DURRL's comment about how in shape you are is VERY important. I have been pretty busy of late and been on a good shedding streak. The setup I have feels good. Earlier this spring I was on vacation for a week and the first gig back hurt. My fingers were sore (though no blisters) and I felt like I had been breaking concrete.

Good luck.

One aspect of string height/action that I don't hear people talking about is timing...depending on your action height in relation to the string type/setup, you end up with a different pliability to the strings and lateral string tension...this affects the right hand relationship with the strings, and the same amount of pull would result in different beat placement on high vs low action. I feel and hear the difference with minor variations in my string height.
Point being for me, how high I want my action is also a function of right hand pull and timing. Sure, one can vary that as well and lay back on the beat or push, but for me, playing 20 minutes of 320bpm with G string at 10mm or higher is just not going to happen. or executing a tricky 16th note line written at 130bpm.
But it's not just timing on up tempos, such things affect my time placement to the detriment at 160bpm. and action too low has the same affect, it feels like one loses the bounce and the centeredness of beat placement with too low action. While it's hard to maintain forward motion at faster tempos when action gets too high
of course, Im also a short guy (5'6") with small fingers, so maybe I'm just more sensitive to this issue than others.
My left hand would prefer higher action, but my right hand can't accommodate. It's not an issue of callouses or injury, it's a matter of physically being able to place the notes properly and execute certain technical things. Which of course, varies for every player and playing style

just a few thoughts... I think timing is as vital an issue as tone production (though by no means do I eschew getting a great sound). It requires a compromise on both issues for me to find a satisfactory playing setup.

[Matthew Tucker]

I think the numbers game can be very misleading too. You need more than one measurement to describe "action", and "normal" is a bit of a moveable feast.

The height at the end of the fingerboard means very little on its own; you can have G=4mm there and still have 10mm under the octave if the scoop is just so. That's a completely different beast to G=8mm at the end of the FB and 5 at the octave with a flatter board.

Both scenarios are workable. It depends on the player, ultimately.