Hat peg dissintegration on the job

[bribass]

At the start of a small private party trio gig tonite the hatpeg shaft that the D string is wrapped around dissintegrated. It broke in two at the string wrap, failing after some 80 odd years of service.

The bass is a c. 1920's carved German shop bass prolly made for the student trade so the wood is not ebony, just some dyed lighter wood. Not that big a deal of a repair I guess, but it chose to break right as I was tuning up at the start of a job where i didn't know the pianist and drummer at all and the agent was there giving us the start cue w/ a look that said, "so I'm listening".

The peg just went "crunch" as I tried to tune the D and immediately I saw what had happened.

There was no possible on the spot fix for the shaft, so I said hmmm...
Bassists made do w/ 3 stringers for centuries, so I tuned the E string up to A, the A string up to D and moved the G string over to the now vacant D string nut and bridge slot. And...voila, an A,D & G 3 stringer (except in the E,A,& D stots w/ an empty G slot).
The tension of the lower strings was all weird ofcourse, but it sounded OK. Although there were a few confused moments, I got through the gig of standards and Jazz just fine.
Actually it was quite interesting. The A tuned to a D had some nice clarity and punch as did the G in the D slot. I had on Superflexibles.

The agent, pianist and drummer had no problem w/ it and were complimentary as well as the guests that included the actors Eli Wallach and Anne Jackson.

Who needs 4 strings and even tension?

Maybe I should sell my basses and get a washtub, broom handle and 1 string. After tonite i think I could play Donna Lee on that set up.

[Uncletoad]

That's a night on the town.

[toman]

I've seen that happen too. I think it should be standard practice to replace those things, everybody! Surely they've paid for themselves by now...

[bribass]

I've been wanting to replace the tuners for a long time. I'm thinking some better machines w/ ebony hatpegs.

Which ones? Any suggestions?

http://shop1.mailordercentral.com/le...ts.asp?dept=54

http://www.gollihurmusic.com/product..._MACHINES.html

http://www.uptonbass.com/Individual-...ning-Machines/

http://www.violins.ca/fittings/pegs/...ines_bass.html

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

The ones from Upton look like the same ones Bob is selling. They may be slightly different but I can't tell. The price seems reasonable, but I don't know what is involved in changing them out.

[Martin Beer]

This thread has scared me a little, as I have equally elderly hatpegs made from beech. I guess that when these were made, strings were gut and lower tension. I've emailed Lemur asking them to measure their replacement pegs so I can see if they're usable with my old machines rather than replacing everything.
I'm sure someone with luthiery experience will chime in, but I suspect replacing them might involve bushing and re-reaming the holes (like fitting cello/violin pegs) if the new ones are not the same size as the old. I wonder if really good fitting might cut down on the creaking and general touchiness that some people complain of?

[Mark Carlsen]

The single pegs come oversize and have to be cut to fit the bass they are being installed on.
I would check w. your luthier because in my case I just recently replaced a broken one w. another old one I had laying around the shop. It was the D key, so I needed to cut it shorter and re-pin it in the machine, then screw it back on the peg box. Maybe an hours work... About the same process if you buy one of those individual ebony ones from Lemur. There is other work as mentioned sometimes in a retro fit like reaming or bushing, but in this case the pegs had the same taper so it was easy. Good luck.

[Bob Branstetter]

If the metal parts of the machines are in good shape, many luthiers prefer to make replacement hatpegs on a lathe rather than using pre-made hatpegs that require modifications to make them fit. They don't have to be Ebony or even super hard to last for a long time with metal strings. I've made them from Walnut, Maple and several other hardwoods. I've seen some that I made 40+ years ago and they are still in good shape. If there isn't a luthier in your area who can make them, find a good wood (lathe) worker. Hatpegs aren't particularly difficult to make if you have the right tools.

[bribass]

Thanks for the suggestions. I know that lathing a new hat peg would be the practical and cheaper quick fix, but I'm thinking of taking the opportunity to upgrade all the tuners/pegs etc.

Which are you favorite (new) hatpeg tuners?

THNX, BG

[Mark Carlsen]

If the tuners/gears work fine then just get the pegs... they retro-fit good and will cost you less than the new tuners set. Who is your luthier ?

[bribass]

Originally Posted by Mark Carlsen

If the tuners/gears work fine then just get the pegs... they retro-fit good and will cost you less than the new tuners set. Who is your luthier ?

Well, it's a fortunate coincidence that this happened to this bass on Fri. I already had an appointment sched. w/ Jeff Bollbach today to tweak my E string response after the great work he did putting on a new FB w/ carbon graphite rod in the neck of the same bass. The bass plays and sounds better than ever and just needed a bit more relief on the E string side.

We discussed tuner options and he suggested a VERY reasonable installed price for some high quality Baker style brass tuners that he has on hand so I'm going w/ that.

I also go to Arnold Schnitzer who does incredible work as well.

BG

[Mark Carlsen]

Both are great luthiers and good guys.... You might even get more sound w. the heavier baker tuners. It can be a toss up as to heavy or lighter weight on the scroll as far as best tone. Jeff knows his stuff and has helped you up to this point, so his suggestion should work well.
Has the bass always had the Hat Pegs ? Alot of basses do like the lighter mass, but I have seen where more weight up there completely changes a bass for the better. Should be fun to see...

[bribass]

Originally Posted by Mark Carlsen

Both are great luthiers and good guys.... You might even get more sound w. the heavier baker tuners. It can be a toss up as to heavy or lighter weight on the scroll as far as best tone. Jeff knows his stuff and has helped you up to this point, so his suggestion should work well.
Has the bass always had the Hat Pegs ? Alot of basses do like the lighter mass, but I have seen where more weight up there completely changes a bass for the better. Should be fun to see...

Mark, yeah, I was thinking the heavier mass on the neck might be good as well, although this bass is supposed to be my lighter, less valuable alternative to my prized, but heavy, Prescott.

It's just a typical 3/4 c.1920's or so German shop/factory bass, probably made for the student market back then. But being as old as it is, it's carved and has really nice tone and playablity. I believe the hatpegs (prolly stained beach wood) are original to the bass. It's a round back w/ an integral bass bar carved into the top w/ a beach neck, but now w/ new FB and rod the added neck stiffness has really helped it's power and projection. Since this improvement I'm using it much more now when I need to fly out of town w/ a bass or when playing those 'in-the-trenches' gigs or w/ big or loud bands where its brighter sound cuts through really well. So I'm can't help giving it some upgrades now. I figure it deserves it after serving me well for 22 years now.

[Mark Carlsen]

Sounds like a real gigging man's bass... only one possible bad side effect,other than changing the basses tone, might be when you lay the bass on its side the now heavier scroll will possibly bounce on the floor because the endpin or lower block area of the bass is now lighter than the scroll. Does Jeff have to re-bush the tuner holes ? The Hat pegs are usually bigger than most metal pegs. That can be some work...

[bribass]

Originally Posted by Mark Carlsen

Sounds like a real gigging man's bass... only one possible bad side effect,other than changing the basses tone, might be when you lay the bass on its side the now heavier scroll will possibly bounce on the floor because the endpin or lower block area of the bass is now lighter than the scroll. Does Jeff have to re-bush the tuner holes ? The Hat pegs are usually bigger than most metal pegs. That can be some work...

Yes, I was thinking 'bout that as well when I was driving home from his shop. I did some concerts w/ a small bass in Brazil that had this problem. It would tip to the scroll when placed on its side. Whacky and not the best sounding bass either.

I'll have to ask Jeff about it. He did say he may have to bush the holes a bit, but he thought the shaft diameters were pretty close.

Bri

[Jake deVilliers]

Sounds like you have a plan but I wanted to mention here that Lemur sells both Ebony and Rosewood knobs for hat peg tuners as singles.

They might be an in-between solution as replacements in that you could probably fit them without needing a lathe.

http://shop1.mailordercentral.com/le...?number=A1368R

[Don Higdon]

Originally Posted by bribass

it chose to break right as I was tuning up at the start of a job ... and the agent was there giving us the start cue w/ a look that said, "so I'm listening".

Reminds me of the old joke:
Q. Who was the first person to say "The show must go on."?
A. An agent.

[Bob Branstetter]

Originally Posted by Jake deVilliers

Sounds like you have a plan but I wanted to mention here that Lemur sells both Ebony and Rosewood knobs for hat peg tuners as singles.

They might be an in-between solution as replacements in that you could probably fit them without needing a lathe.

You probably can, but (1) chances are you are going to need to ream the peg hole even larger than it already is and (2) there is IMO a 90% chance that the head of the peg will not match the remaining three in size and/or shape. Anyone who is half way decent with a lathe should be able to match the peg head of the other remaining hatpegs.

[Steve Swan]

I love the Rubner ebony hatpeg tuners. They come standard on the model bass that I play, and were used on a custom bass that I had made in 1999. In don't know of any other commerically available brand. I get mine from Gotz for custom installations.

[robobass]

Originally Posted by Bob Branstetter

You probably can, but (1) chances are you are going to need to ream the peg hole even larger than it already is and (2) there is IMO a 90% chance that the head of the peg will not match the remaining three in size and/or shape. Anyone who is half way decent with a lathe should be able to match the peg head of the other remaining hatpegs.

Yeah! Buying frefab hatpegs sounds ridiculous to me. Any Grandpa who owns a wood lathe should be able to make one for you cheap. I like my crude 130 year-old hatpeg gears, and can get my bass in tune just fine with them. My guess is that pegs last 50 years on average. If one is about to go, You or your luthier should be able to see it coming. As far as new machines, my repair guy does a brisk business installing new, fancy, expensive tuners, but I don't see it.
If it ain't broke...
Robobass