How Loud Should My Bass Be?

johnfowles · #1 10-17-2008, 04:53 PM

Hi TBers,
Some of you may remember me discussing the volume of my bass a few weeks ago. I've got slightly paranoid now. How loud should a 3/4 bass actually be. I'm worried that the conductor can't hear enough of my part. And now i'm thinking about it sometimes I can't hear myself well enough to judge intonation.

I suppose going from a jazz big band (amplified) to orchestra won't help matters of worry. It seems so quiet when I turn the amp off!

Any comparisons that may put my mind at rest?

I've got Corelli 370's on at the moment, and will be changing to Evahs in hope that will improve tone and volume.

Thanks in advance.

JoeyNaeger · #2 10-17-2008, 05:47 PM

Playing the bass doesn't put you in the best position to hear it properly. See if you can someone to play it for you while you stand back and listen. If your bass section is significantly outnumbered by other instruments, that would explain why you're director is not hearing the bass sound. If you're having trouble hearing yourself, stick your ear against the neck or scroll of your bass. I find this useful to help tune when I am having trouble hearing myself.

johnfowles · #3 10-17-2008, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeyNaeger

See if you can someone to play it for you while you stand back and listen.

I'd love to do that, but being left handed is usually an issue. I'll just get someone to bow some open strings for me.

Cheers for the tip.

fingers · #4 10-17-2008, 06:07 PM

1.21 gigawatts!!!

chris dammann · #5 10-17-2008, 07:01 PM

ever try playing in front of a wall? this can give you a pretty honest view of your bass sound. if your playing five feet from a wall you should be booming...

Andrew McGregor · #6 10-17-2008, 07:01 PM

It's normal to sometimes be unable to hear yourself in an orchestra. Especially since if you are playing really in tune with the section, your bass will tend to 'lock in' to the rest of the section, and lose its own character (this is supposed to happen, the more the better).

Full volume in a section is way louder than you'd play practicing on your own, too... in fact, you can get away with your sound turning quite ugly to your own ear, because the accoustics of a room big enough to fit an orchestra in will tend to let those scratchy bits disperse more than the proper sound of the bass. The same effect means that brightish strings are not a big deal. Too bright and you'll have a hard time getting energy into the fundamental, and that will make the bass sound quiet to you in the orchestra... but you'll be heard where it matters. However, you can't have everyone in the section playing a super-bright bass because the blend will fail.

Salty · #7 10-17-2008, 08:04 PM

The answer is "not louder than mine"

Jake deVilliers · #8 10-17-2008, 09:38 PM

"The answer is "not louder than mine" "

Perfect!

johnfowles · #9 10-18-2008, 09:23 AM

Maybe a little info about my bass. It's an 1880s german swell back. 3/4. It has been converted left handed. This involved taking the top off. New bass bar, sound post etc. It's been restored from that.

It has an adjustable bridge. Currently set so it's just bowable.

People struggle to hear the double bass in a rehearsal room over an acoustic piano. I'm guessing this is bad?

Could my strings make a big difference?

ctregan · #10 10-18-2008, 10:56 AM

Corelli strings are thin and not very loud under a bow. I think you will notice a big difference with a heavier gauge string.

JoeyNaeger · #11 10-18-2008, 01:37 PM

The bass is not a loud instrument comparatively. I wouldn't worry too much about how it can't compete with other instruments.

johnfowles · #12 10-18-2008, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ctregan

Corelli strings are thin and not very loud under a bow. I think you will notice a big difference with a heavier gauge string.

I'm going to order some Evahs tonight, i'll put them on and let you all know.

I really REALLY hope this sorts it!

Cheers

Andrew McGregor · #13 10-19-2008, 04:38 AM

How much work have you done on high-power bow technique? I know at one point I sat down and did nothing much for a couple of weeks but work on LOUD.

Can you crush your strings into the fingerboard with a reasonable bow pressure? If so, they're too low and bringing them up a mm or so (yes really, one millimetre) should get you a heap more power; the envelope of the string vibration is very large playing loud arco, so you need room for it.

David Potts · #14 10-19-2008, 06:00 AM

Sweet and clear as they might sound Corelli strings don't suit me for orchestra use. Not powerful enough. I favour D'Addario Medium Tension Orchestral strings. At least I can hear myself in a section. Haven't tried Evahs yet.

I was told once that smaller basses might work better with heavier strings. Is this a myth?

DP

johnfowles · #15 10-19-2008, 06:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Potts

Sweet and clear as they might sound Corelli strings don't suit me for orchestra use. Not powerful enough. I favour D'Addario Medium Tension Orchestral strings. At least I can hear myself in a section. Haven't tried Evahs yet.

I was told once that smaller basses might work better with heavier strings. Is this a myth?

DP

I totally agree now. I used to use Obligato strings on my other bass and they were great for bowing. I guess I was sort of sold blind on them as bob can obviously get them very cheap, so he's pushing them.

No disrespect to bob.

johnfowles · #16 10-19-2008, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsbarber

I seem to recall that the top plate vibration modes for a curved back bass are not symmetrical. If this is the case, then when your bass was made as a right hand bass the top plate would likely have been tuned accordingly. When you discussed the conversion to lefty you didn't mention anything about the top plate. If top plates are not tuned symmetrically, then you would have defeated this tuning with the conversion.

I might have read about this asymmetry in this dissertation, but I'm not sure:

http://iwk.mdw.ac.at/Forschung/pdf_d...ssertation.pdf

Maybe AES or someone else knowledgeable in these matters might be able to elucudate. (I could be completely wrong)

JIm

I sent this information to my luthier and she said there was zero chance of the people who made my bass knowing anything about top plate vibration modes (probably because it was built in c.1880).

Thanks for the ideas though.

uprightben · #17 10-19-2008, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew McGregor

How much work have you done on high-power bow technique? I know at one point I sat down and did nothing much for a couple of weeks but work on LOUD.

Can you crush your strings into the fingerboard with a reasonable bow pressure? If so, they're too low and bringing them up a mm or so (yes really, one millimetre) should get you a heap more power; the envelope of the string vibration is very large playing loud arco, so you need room for it.

+1, if you want louder, raise your strings.

johnfowles · #18 10-19-2008, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by uprightben

+1, if you want louder, raise your strings.

I've just put my bridge up a mm or two and the strangest thing has happened. The D string is now booming (and the volume i'd expect of my bass) and the E string is really really quiet.

Does this sound like a string issue now?

(My Evahs arrive on Tuesday...)

Jake deVilliers · #19 10-20-2008, 01:36 AM

What happens when you raise it another 2 mm and what are your string heights at the end of the fingerboard, from the wood to the underside of the strings?

MIKMAN · #20 10-20-2008, 04:24 AM

Moving the soundpost a bit towards the G string increases the volume of the E and A strings. The limit is the outer part of the bridge's foot under the G string. You have to try it step by step in order to find the particular spot, where the four strings give the best, loudest, balanced tone. I tried the same, following the advice of our friends in the TB forum, with optimum results. Be patient and everything is gonna be all right.