How much to repair? how much to offer?

[Eilif]

I may have an opportunity to pick up a trio of doublebasses soon from a long defunct school music department. One is pretty servicable, and just needs an endpin. the other two I have questions about.

Both are older (probably 70's or 80's) EC1 Englehardts.

Both are missing endpins but have intact soundposts

Bass 1 is compete, but is the neck has come unglued

Bass 2 appears to have an intact neck joint, but needs a bridge (I may have an extra that will work) and tailpiece

My questions are.

1)Just to get them into basic playable/sellable shape, what might I have to spend? I realize this is a pretty vague request, but vague estimates are fine.

2)What can I expect to sell them for them once repaired?

3)How much should I offer to "donate" to the school in exchange for the 2 instruments?

I'm not looking to make a ton of cash on these, but it'd be nice to save these basses from their slow death and give them a new life and make a few bucks in the process.

[Gearhead43]

Not sure how much to offer, but you may be able to sell them "as is" to some enterprizing "do it yourself" roots music bass players.

After you get them, ask for some advice over on Rockabillybass.com also. Alot of us like and play Engelhardts, and many get better sounding as they age, IMO.

You could post them in the classfieds there also.

For a little perspective, I bought my 1995 EC1 for $600 a little over a year ago. It needed a new bridge, some nut work, cleaning, and a seam glued up, which I did myself and it is now a very good sounding, loud, deep, extremely punchy, and easily playable instrument.

Knowing the type of bassists who prefer plywood basses will be helpfull in selling them. Engels are pretty mediocre for student / community orchestra use, but work very well for Bluegrass, Rockabilly, Blues, Americana, etc. They also amplify well and hold up to constant gigging. A good setup is crucial to get them sounding and playing their best of course.

[Eilif]

Thanks Gearhead,
Your EC1 sounds exactly like the bass that I have. I like mine as well, especially after the setup. At this point, I'm thinking that I could move the harware from the bass with the separated neck to the other bass. Then I could have one intact, and one that could be sold as a "project"

Anyone out there have any suggestions?

Most helpfull would be if anyone can let me know what I should expect to pay for reattaching a neck that has come unglued.

[Bass Barrister]

Eilif,

Why don't you just call the area luthiers: Mark Sonksen, Michell Fiore, Scott Henrie, the guy at a440. They can probably ballpark this for you and give you a better estimate once they eyeball the bass.

BTW: I notice that you list Rich Armandi as a teacher. I studied euphonium with him and also took my first couple of DB lessons with him as well. He's a great and very versatile musician and good teacher (tuba, euphonium, DB, BG). Did you study at his home studio or at COD?

[Uncletoad]

These are usually around $1000 new and undamaged. Used they sell for a fraction of that. There is no money to be made here unless you can make the repairs yourself. Broken stuff on this level of value has no profit margin even for the experienced shop getting them for free.

[Eilif]

Originally Posted by Bass Barrister

Eilif,

Why don't you just call the area luthiers: Mark Sonksen, Michell Fiore, Scott Henrie, the guy at a440. They can probably ballpark this for you and give you a better estimate once they eyeball the bass.

BTW: I notice that you list Rich Armandi as a teacher. I studied euphonium with him and also took my first couple of DB lessons with him as well. He's a great and very versatile musician and good teacher (tuba, euphonium, DB, BG). Did you study at his home studio or at COD?

I can't at this time remove the basses at the school, but thanks for the list of luthiers. I've only ever used the fellow at A440 for my personal Engelhardt, and it was a good experience, but it's always good to have alternates

As for Rich Armandi, I took lessons from him at both locations depending on his schedule. Sadly I was a very poor student, and never took full advantage of his time or Warren Benfield, my teacher previous to that.

Originally Posted by Uncletoad

These are usually around $1000 new and undamaged. Used they sell for a fraction of that. There is no money to be made here unless you can make the repairs yourself. Broken stuff on this level of value has no profit margin even for the experienced shop getting them for free.

Thanks, this is kind of what I was thinking, and is why I may just move the parts from the detached-neck bass to the intact bass, and make one workable bass from the two separate basses.

On the other hand, Replacement parts aren't too expensive, if I can do everything except for the neck reattachment would that change the equasion, or is the dettached-neck bass pretty much a lost cause?

[TroyK]

Originally Posted by Eilif

I may have an opportunity to pick up a trio of doublebasses

...

Bass 1 is compete, but is the neck has come unglued

Bass 2 appears to have an intact neck joint, but needs a bridge (I may have an extra that will work) and tailpiece

...

3)How much should I offer to "donate" to the school in exchange for the 2 instruments?

Don't mean to nitpick either, but "trio" means "3". How many are there actually?

Not that I have anything of value to contribute to the conversation. =^ /

[Uncletoad]

Bridges are rarely transferable from one bass to the next. They need to fit very well and each bass is different. Tailpieces are generic but cheap so they are of little value. Fixing loose necks on basses takes some skill and isn't cheap.

[Eilif]

Originally Posted by TroyK

Don't mean to nitpick either, but "trio" means "3". How many are there actually?

Not that I have anything of value to contribute to the conversation. =^ /

in answer...

Originally Posted by Eilif

One is pretty servicable, and just needs an endpin. the other two I have questions about.

There's three basses. The first bass only needs an endpin, and possibly a setup. It's the other two that I'm trying to decide the viability of.

Originally Posted by Uncletoad

Bridges are rarely transferable from one bass to the next. They need to fit very well and each bass is different. Tailpieces are generic but cheap so they are of little value. Fixing loose necks on basses takes some skill and isn't cheap.

I think the bridge will be my biggest challenge, but I'm hoping that either the one on the detached neck bass, or the slightly oversized extra one I have at home might be close enough that I can get it into sellable condition.

As for the separated neck bass, I'm not sure if I want to try a reset just for practice, or just take the whole thing apart.

[kurt ratering]

do englehardts have a "normal" neck set, or a guitar style dovetail hidden by the top?

[Jake deVilliers]

That's a good question Kurt.
Kays have a Martin style dovetail and I would imagine that the Engelhardts do as well, seeing as how they're made on the same tooling but I've never had the whole neck off of one!

[ctregan]

You could just ask; "how much do you want for them"?

[kurt ratering]

Originally Posted by Uncletoad

These are usually around $1000 new and undamaged. Used they sell for a fraction of that. There is no money to be made here unless you can make the repairs yourself. Broken stuff on this level of value has no profit margin even for the experienced shop getting them for free.

or not

[Eilif]

Originally Posted by kurt ratering

do englehardts have a "normal" neck set, or a guitar style dovetail hidden by the top?

What does a dovetail look like? I may be able to get a look tomorrow.

[Jake deVilliers]

Eilif, its a double-tapered locking mortise and tenon joint.

If you go to www.crescentbeachguitar.com ---> Gallery ---> 1950 Kay M - 1 you can see pix of the shape of the neck and the mortise in the neck block that it fits into.

Email me if you need additional views.

[fdeck]

Originally Posted by Jake deVilliers

Eilif, its a double-tapered locking mortise and tenon joint.

If you go to www.crescentbeachguitar.com ---> Gallery ---> 1950 Kay M - 1 you can see pix of the shape of the neck and the mortise in the neck block that it fits into.

Email me if you need additional views.

That's exactly how my ~1961 M-1 is constructed too, just for the record. Do you think it is a good design? I have my doubts. The neck block does not seem as substantial as pics I have seen of the innards of other basses.

On my Kay, a loose neck turned out to be associated with a cracked neck block.

[Eilif]

Thanks for those pictures. IIRC, the neck is far enough separated that should be able to get a clear view of the type of joint. I'll try and have a look tomorrow.

Oddly enough, the pictures gave me another idea, if the damage is really severe, The removal of the top and instalation of a few platforms could create an awesome book storage solution!

Kind of like those antique canoe or boat bookcases...

But alot cooler!

[Eilif]

I got another look at bass #2 yesterday. I got the serial #, but then promptly forgot it. I'll try and get it today. I had a look inside, and the tailpiece and the sound post are inside the bass! I guess if I end up acquiring this thing, I'll have my first go at soundpost placement. Also, a closer look at the fingerboard reveals that ebonization has started to wear/chip off, so a strip and redye would be inorder. No big deal, just a little elbow grease.

A bit more backstory for those who may be interested:
On my lunch breaks from work, I'm helping the band director sort out the mountains of orchestra music that the school has. These three basses, and the orchestra music are all that is left of the school's once proud orchestra program. It is suspected that the previous music director took all of the school's other 50 or so Violins, Violas, Cellos and Basses (apparently the school had 8 string basses at one time!), but no one can prove anything!

Now the school finds it'self in a "changing" neighborhood with no hope of -or interest in-ever having an orchestra again, with a band that needs some new drum heads and instruments, but has no way to pay for them. The school can't officially "sell" the music of course, but I am helping him sort out the music in the hopes that a "donor" can be found that would donate a significant amount to the band program and then would "recieve" the orchestral music.

I'm going to start another thread about this, but if anyone has any contacts of any music programs in the northern Illinois area that are starting up an orchestra, or looking to acquire orchestra music, please contact me. I'm up to 140 pieces, and I'm probably less than 1/3 of the way through.

The basses come into play, in that I am thinking about offering to make one whole bass out of the two incomplete basses, whereupon the school will have two intact basses. Then I would sell one, and take the other as payment. I want to take care of the music part before I make any bass offers, but I'm excited at the prospect of trying my hand at some bass work.