How to take off (steam off) neck

[swamprocker]

The neck on my schroeder broke off up at the top where it meets the scroll. I had it glued. But as soon as I strung it up and had it in tune and started playing it came apart again.

So, I need to replace the neck. Can anyone suggest a way to get the full neck off. What are the best methods for steaming it to loosen the glue to get it off?

I know 99.9% of the suggestions are going to be to take it to a luthier, but I am doing this myself. once I get the neck off I have someone that will replace a new neck.

I have no fears or concerns with doing this myself. And I also try to learn as much as I can about taking care of my own equipment so to me this is another opportunity to learn.

so please. any suggestions or advise ?

[Uncletoad]

How bout some pictures?

[swamprocker]

these pics aren't great. but it shows the little bit of surface area available to work with. you will see a couple holes in the top of the neck. I guess there was a break before I owned the bass (i had it for 8 years before this break)and they used glue and screws to fix it. It was hell getting those screws out. anyway, here are the pics.

[Uncletoad]

Should be able to fix that without replacing the neck. Doesn't look that bad.

Any DB luthiers wanna jump in here...?

[swamprocker]

any advice and help would be appreciated. I'm not afraid to work on it myself. I want to learn the luthier trade anyway.

my only thought, since the surface area to work with is small and it was screwed before, would be to just use a larger screw than previously used. one through each side, and one through the back. And lots of good glue.

i know that glue alone isn't going to work though, as previously mentioned, the last fix I had a guy do only used glue and it came undone as soon as I re-strung the bass.

this time I will be changing strings. before i used steel strings, but i'm going to be going with gut strings now. not sure if that will cut down on the tension.

btw, thanks Phil.

[hdiddy]

I dunno, that looks pretty ugly, mainly because there's so much tension from the strings and that it's broken twice now. Looking at my handy dandy Chuck Traeger book, he advises that alot of metalwork be used (bolt and several pins). Yuk! I'm sure part of their advice will be to get some of the other luthiery books to read. Will be interesting to see what they have to say.

[swamprocker]

so much tension, and so little surface area to work with.
but i would think some metal work coming in from the rear, would maybe offset the tension from the front. Luthiers?
I will gladly buy books as I want to learn the trade anyway, but some free advise to get started on this fix would be greatly appreciated so I can get fixed up and playing again. I'm jonesing to play so bad.

Pearl is a '81 Schroetter. I LOVE this base.

[Jake deVilliers]

It's a little hard to tell but it looks like there is a stub of neck left that goes into a matching socket in the pegbox.

If that's the case, I'd be tempted to put a medium biggish birch/maple dowel in from the back, up towards the board and maybe a couple of smaller ones crosswise from cheek to cheek.
Say 1/2" to 3/4" and 1/4".

The worst part is that it is now contaminated with some unknown icky glues.
They'll need to be scraped out and the box/stub shimmed and trimmed for a tight, straight fit. This is the important part!

And I hate to say it, but you may need to use epoxy if the present glue won't come out of the pores of the wood.

I'd feel better about advising you if I could hold the whole shebang in my hands.............

If you'd complete your profile, we could send you to your friendly neighborhood bass repairman for some real time diagnosis.

[arnoldschnitzer]

In my shop, when a neck is trash, we do not try to "steam" it out of the joint. We saw it off at the body, then chisel out the heel bit by bit. It takes a long time, but does less damage. If you are going that far, why not do the whole neck replacement?

[swamprocker]

Originally Posted by arnoldschnitzer

In my shop, when a neck is trash, we do not try to "steam" it out of the joint. We saw it off at the body, then chisel out the heel bit by bit. It takes a long time, but does less damage. If you are going that far, why not do the whole neck replacement?

thanks Arnold. That was initial plan, to just replace the whole neck. my thought was if I could 'steam' out the joint it would be easier and less damaging to the body.

[swamprocker]

Arnold, i've been looking over your website. GREAT stuff!!!
On the 'hand made basses' page re. the ergonomic contrabass III, what are the functionof the three holes ont the top of the body near the neck?

[Jeff Bollbach]

A whole new neck is gonna be quite a bit of money and are you sure your guy can pull off the job correctly? A botched neck job is bad news big time. This bass can be fixed and although it will be a "dirty" repair it should hold and it will be cheap. Beware any who are squeamish or elitist-don't read any further! First, clean off whatever old glue you can. Then epoxy the joint. Place a beefy wood screw thru the scroll button into the neck as deep as possible. Drill a 1/4 hole thru the cheeks of the scroll just behind the nut and place a 1/4 steel rod thru it. This will prevent the cheeks from shearing forward under tension. Now comes the really ugly part . Scrape the inside of the pegbox to the bare wood to just above the first holes. Fiberglass this area and paint it black.
While this repair would be frowned upon by "fine" luthiers it will work, is cheap, and can be done in a few hours.

[swamprocker]

Thanks Jeff.

Beware any who are squeamish or elitist-don't read any further!

HAHA!

I'm sure he can get the job done. I have seen his work from doing it on a buddies bass. And it has held up for the past 9years. However, he hasn't done bass work in so long he doesn't have all his tools anymore. that's why I am opting to take the neck off myself as it will save me several hundred dollars. PLUS, I want to learn the trade and this would be a good start I'm not squeamish or elitist, but want to know i'm doing it right.

I think I will try your fix first. The bass takes a beating anyway when I'm playing. so, if it doesn't hold up, I know I can then resort to working on removing the neck.

[Maaaven]

I hear the ghost of one recently departed internet persona
rattling his chains. Me, I wanna see picture of your work.
The dirty jobs hold a certian fasination, like watching a car/
jet/train crash. Gentlemen, warm up your resins!

[Silversorcerer]

One problem with breaking down the neck join with steam (assuming the glue on the original constuction will give to heat and moisture) is that you have the ribs and plates glued to the block at this area as well and there is no way you can limit the heat and moisture from loosening the ribs and plates from the block at the same time you are loosening the neck. And sometimes these necks are dovetailed and fitted under the top plate;- meaning you'd have to remove the top as well to get the neck out of the mortice. That would be way to much work for what really needs to be accomplished here. As far as reattaching the scroll, the proper way (for the elitists and squeamish) would be a rather complex graft that would almost certainly require that you buy some pricey and specialized joinery tools. Jeff is giving you the best advice for a working man's bass repair. It will get the scroll and box back onto the neck and get it working again.

[robobass]

I go for just gluing the scroll back on. Jeff's advice was good, but I wouldn't even bother with pinning. If it doesn't work, you have lost nothing. I don't know what epoxies luthiers are using these days, but there must be some good ones out there. I was in the world of urethane casting resins in the '90s and found these things to be amazing as adhesives. I glued a cracked bridge in '98 and still play on it today.
First, remove all glue from existing surfaces, even if that requires sanding. Second, find a way to position the scroll/neck joint, so that it will be held in position as the new glue sets (maybe dowel pins, maybe not). Third, locate a real pro glue, not from Home Depot. Try mcmaster.com. ex. Loctite® 82093. I have been out of the business for awhile, but I am confident that the right adhesive will make a stronger bond thant the wood itself.
Robobass

[arnoldschnitzer]

Originally Posted by robobass

I have been out of the business for awhile, but I am confident that the right adhesive will make a stronger bond thant the wood itself.
Robobass

Yes, most modern adhesives will make a bond stronger than the wood. However, the break to Swamprocker's bass is at the weakest possible spot, with short grain all around. Jeff is on the money when he recommends reinforcing after gluing. This is especially important because the break has been glued previously, leaving behind some inevitable old glue and a less-than-perfect fit.

[Mark Carlsen]

I have been quite pleased w. the results in my shop on this type of repair using Epoxy.We use West System which is used in boat building.If you clean the old break carefully of all the old glue and can make the joint [ crack ] fit back together pretty well,you have a chance. I don't use any bolts or screws and over 11 years not one bass has come back for re-repair.The key is the prep work...

[Uncletoad]

Originally Posted by Mark Carlsen

I have been quite pleased w. the results in my shop on this type of repair using Epoxy.We use West System which is used in boat building.If you clean the old break carefully of all the old glue and can make the joint [ crack ] fit back together pretty well,you have a chance. I don't use any bolts or screws and over 11 years not one bass has come back for re-repair.The key is the prep work...

I prefer not to use metalwork either. I don't work on Double Basses so those circumstances may be different. I have used West Systems for at least a decade and find it an excellent epoxy. Since mid last year I've been using some epoxy new to me by RBC that I find very compelling. It's been gluing up super hard with no perceptible creep. Takes color and thickeners very well without much change in set times or hardness. So far it seems very resistant to heat. Best of all it sands clean and flat like lacquer.

Check it out.

[nicklloyd]

Instead of metalwork, try wood 3/8" x 1" dowels and glue under the tuning plates, two for each cheek. You will end up with four wood pins, mostly hidden by the tuning plates.

White vinegar and paper towels will help clean up the old glue from the previous repair.