improve Your Tone

speyer · #1 10-14-2006, 09:09 PM

This is my first post. I have been using talkbass for my bass resouces for about four years, and finally decided to buck up the $ and become a supporting member! To the point... I recently read an article in double bassist magazine about improving the tone of your db. It stated that replacing the components on your bass that impede the free resonance of your instrument can drastically improve overall response. In summary, it said that replacing the metal parts ie: tuning posts, endpin, tailpeice etc. with wooden components will dramatically change the way your instrument resonates. The article made plenty of sense to me, but I am here looking for some more opinions and any hard evidence.

The reason I ask is that I have a new 4string Speyer db that needs a little love. It has a carved spruce top and carved flamed maple back/neck, laminated ribs and despiau hardened bridge. It is a gorgeous instrument and was a hell of an upgrade from my last db. I play mostly pizz and occasionally arco on obligato strings. I love the overall tone of my bass but I have issues with volume different notes when played. For instance why does the D string, or any D for that matter sound really loud and an F so quiet? I understand that this is normal for many instruments (perticularily newer ones) but really... what are the best ways to combat these negative resonating qualities of double basses? Does anyone have any experience using these or other methods of improving overall db respone?

Aarongermain · #2 10-15-2006, 01:34 AM

I hear you. I have a pretty old czech instrument, and all the notes are even in volume acoustically, but when amplified, the b flats are drastically louder and boomy. I'm still waiting for someone to shed some light on this mystery.

conte2music · #3 10-15-2006, 08:39 AM

it may just be from the playing position that the bass sounds uneven. before you get too worried get someone else to play, and you should go out to where the sound really blooms, and you'll hear if the d is also percieved as being louder as a listener.

If there are really uneven notes when amplifying, maybe the pickup is poorly fitted? Maybe you could eq to softer that portion of the bass.

**Chris Fitzgerald** · #4 10-15-2006, 09:55 AM

Ditto on checking whether the unevenness is more of an acoustic thing or an amplified thing. My good friend Sid King has and absolutely "to-die-for" Hachez bass that sounds like the voice of god acoustically but gets uneven amplified response in a group setting...there, I think it's the pickup. On my LaScala hybrid, which is an incredibly even bass in all registers, the open D seems to be the one note that makes an entire city block resonate (same thing happened on my old bass with the Bb below that). Over time, I've just learned to incorporate treating that note with kid gloves automatically while playing. On recordings, the engineer applies a thin resonance filter after the fact to tame it when it "blooms" too much, and all is well.

speyer · #5 10-15-2006, 09:21 PM

I am just talking acoustically here... and there are a few notes that are dead when played anywhere on the neck, like my bass is fighting the resonant frequency of that note. When a particular note sounds good, it will resonate well in any position!?! Sometimes I get the feeling that it's because it's such a young bass. Like perhaps over time, the more the bass resonates to those perticular notes, the sound will improve. Anyways, has anyone found that a specific set of strings can improve this unevenessin basses? Or replacing metal componets as described above? I'll take anything remotely helpfull!!

I have tried three different tailpieces: ebony, rosewood and aluminum. The rosewood tailpeice proved signifigantly better than both. Any advice on pecanic or compensated tailpeices? Also, I don't know what kind of strings came on my bass but I did like them, I just havent tried them in a while. They have Light Blue wraps on both ends. Well thnks for the help.

joel kelsey · #6 10-15-2006, 11:38 PM

Hello,

How is the setup of your bass? Are the bridge and soundpost in the right spots? I have found, that if the bridge or soundpost is off by a little, the tone of the bass can suffer a lot. You have probably thought of these things, but I thought I would mention them anyway. Good luck, and welcome to TalkBass!

hdiddy · #7 10-16-2006, 12:51 AM

Yeah, I was gonna say that you should go get a setup done on the bass and maybe get rid of any high spots on the FB that may be causing the irregularities. After that, tonewise I would suspect the strings may be causing the irregularities. For instance, I get an odd Bb now with the dominants that I have on and then that never happened with any other strings. With Animas I used to get a "pingy" kind of sound in the upper registers.

Beyond that, I would iterate that your technique has probably the biggest thing to do with good sound. If you're playing by your finger tips and you're getting a thin sound, there's nothing that can help you get a thick and full sound unless the technique is improved so that theres more meat pulling the strings. Even that pingyness mentioned above with the Animas could go away if I approached playing with the "right" technique. Replacing the metal parts sounds really expensive and unneccessary unless you got a hole burning in your pocket. Look elsewhere. Just some thoughts.

JtheJazzMan · #8 10-17-2006, 05:16 AM

Hi, I didnt see any mention of the thickness of the bridge where they were touching the string? You want as little wood touching the strings as you can. You said you play mainly pizzicato? do you play any jazz? If youre looking for that "singing" tone, having too thick of a bridge will soak up some of the vibrations youre looking for.

I bought my double off an orchestral player and once i had shaved the bridge enough to get the action low, the bridge was 10mm thick touching the strings

After shaving some off the front and back, and taking a triangular pen file and making an angled groove the strings sounded so much more lively. (theres about 4.5 - 5mm thickness at the top, but only about 3mm touching the strings)

Im still trying to improve on the tone of the G string. it seems to be the hardest to get a good tone out of. especially pizz. playing. as mentioned already technique has the biggest effect on your tone. youll want to sort that out in person with someone experienced, theyll know a lot of tips and tricks. having said that, theres almost always room for improvement on the setup on your bass - theyre very fiddly (no pun intended) instruments that change constantly. Its like a dog chasing its tail trying to keep it sounding the way you want it!

But thats half the fun right?

good luck

Sam Sherry · #9 10-17-2006, 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by speyer

It said that replacing the metal parts ie: tuning posts, endpin, tailpeice etc. with wooden components will dramatically change the way your instrument resonates.

I've always thought that most of this is hogwash. But taking it point by point:

TUNERS: Most believe that the actual material of the tuners has zero effect on tone production. In any orchestra you'll find great-sounding bassist using many different types of tuners so it would seem unlikely that there is only one type of tuner which gives "The Sound." There are some people around here -- Bob Branstetter comes to mind -- who put a lot of stock in how the weight of tuners affects the natural resonance of the neck. Search for "A0/B0" and you'll see it. Most of us (including me) like and respect Mr. Branstetter but many expressed skepticism.

ENDPIN: Most believe that the actual material of the endpin has zero effect on tone production. Again, some believe that the weight of the unit can affect the overall resonance of the instrument. The angle of the endpin affects the angle that you, the player, hear the instrument. If the endpin is hollow, there is a potential resonance. If the endpin slips you will hear a loud curse or crashing noise which can affect tone production.

TAILPIECE: The "afterlength" -- the part of the string which is behind the bridge -- does resonate unless it is purposely choked (by, for example, a 1/4" jack). Changing the length of the tailpiece and/or the length of the tailpiece-cord will affect this resonance. Some luthiers try to tune the afterlengths to a particular note.

More than a few folks have experienced a tonal or resonance effect based on changing the weight of the unit.

Many believe that the actual material of the endpin has zero effect on tone production. Many satisfied customers of Mike Pecanic have reported that installing his tailpiece has affected the sound of their instrument; they certainly are attractive and appear to be well-made. I have never seen anyone report an "objective" test, which would entail installing three each of three different woods or composites in an indentical position and achieving consistent results perceived by player and listener.

But who knows. I'm wrong all the time. Experiment and let us all know, please!

Maaaven · #10 10-18-2006, 05:41 PM

I was sad when Bob got tired of posting here. I found his
posts some of the best. I have been away too, busy mostly.

Back now, I have done some A0/B0 experiments of my own.
And my own take is that is is less hogwash than many
things being touted as helpful. I hope this will stay civil.
If you are offended that I got it to work, stop reading here.

As simply as I can, different parts of the bass resonate at
different frequencies. The better you match them up,
the better sounding bass; more volume, better tone,
more evenness. The areas of primary interest are the
neck/scroll, the body cavity, and the tailpiece.

Mute you strings and tap one side of your board down at the
bottom end. You should get a note. Try to play it. Write it
down. Now do the same thing tapping the top of your
tailpiece on one side only. Find it, write i down. Now the
hardest one. Ever blow across a coke bottle to get a note.
Do the same with your F-hole. (Insert Joke Here!)

I did a more complicated version with a sub-woofer firing in
one F-hole and a sweep tone and a tuner. The air rushing
out the other was over a broad range. Write down the note
you read on your tuner when the air starts rushing and the
note where it stops. Half way inbetween is your mean cavity
resonance. This is your target for all other adjustments.

The front table also went through it's various modes.
This was fun. All the eigen speak does not do justice to
feeling the table go through all it's modes. It resonates at
many different frequenices, so good luck getting a tap tone.

You cannot change the cavity resonance, so you gotta match
the tailpiece and the neck to it. Thick neck may give you a
higher than desired note. Same with a short neck / board.
Same with light machines ( I hope I got all those straight).
I glued Al blocks under the scallop near the bottom end of
the freeboard part of the fingerboard. I ended up with 100
grams and drops about 5 or six semitones, if I recall. The
easiest to change is the tailpiece. Squeeze the tail piece
cords closer together and the whole reverb unit is less
constrained in its primary mode, which is rocking. I recall
this drops the tone of the tailpiece. The fiber tailpiece cords
are a big help here. But that solid wire one had a wicked
growl that I miss. Can I get both? I doubt it.

The end pin was the last bit. The bass vibrates in various
places, and other places (or nodes) are relatively fixed.
The nut is a node. Above the scroll vibrates, below also.
But the nut does not have much shaken goin on. It seems
as if a stiff end-pin makes the tail bridge a node, that is
relatively fixed location. With a pretty floppy carbon unit,
the bottom of my bass is unconstrained and I get higher
volume on the e-string, and a bit more on the a string too.
I have compared it to various steel and wood configurations,
also bent and straight.

My little 5/8ths is now even across the strings and has good
volume throughout. It was not that way when I bought it.
You could not afford to pay someone to spend as much time
as this took me, but it was a labor of love. Now the second
time I do it, I could have it all done with testing in 1/2 day.
(except getting the glue to dry to attach the Al blocks)

Everything I did is fully reversible. The Al blocks come of with
warm water. The tailpiece cord has to be reset everytime
I play with strings or bridge. Adding a connector will
change the tap tone of the tailpiece. Readjust it to match
the center of the cavity tone if you can. Now you may see
that a bow quiver will really mess us the job the tailpiece is
designed to do.

Maybe having sweep tones available digitally would be a
benefit to the community. You can do the cavity speaker
test with your home stereo if you have a CD burned with
the test tracks.

So how big an effect is this? Is it worth messing with,
or even playing someone who is a A0/B0 blackbelt to do
it for your bass? I would say it is similar to a change in
strings in terms of effect, or perhaps like a sound post
adjustment. But it is not as big an effect as going from a
$20 bow to a $1000 or $2000 bow.

If you are a hacker by nature you can work it bit by bit.

Have fun with this, I did.

p.s.

Sam, that bow repair by your BIL was fantastic.
That bow is now by far my favorite stick. THX!

stick now.

Bob Branstetter · #11 10-18-2006, 06:19 PM

As I have stated in other threads, I will not discuss A0/B0 matching on any terms but my own. It's all out there in the archieves. If you think that what you did was A0/B0 matching, all I can say is that I'm glad it works for you.

speyer · #12 10-20-2006, 03:04 PM

well thanks again everyone. I have a feeling this will be a work in progress and there seems to be many ways to combat these tone issues. I think that I will focus on my pizz technique first, since I have only been playing DB for three years. I probably have some bad habits that need remedies. Then maybe i'll have a sit down with my luthier, discuss some soundpost options etc. my fingerboard and bridge are sweet as is. Again, thanks for the input.

Bob Branstetter · #13 10-22-2006, 11:00 AM

It had been my intention not to discuss A0-B0 matching in this thread, but since I've had several people email me with questions, I will clarify a couple of things. First is that the tap tone of the fingerboard is exactly that - the tap tone of the fingerboard. To find the B0 you have to tap the scroll. On a violin you can clearly hear this tone. On a bass, you are probably going to hear more of the overtones which may or may not be multiples of the true B0 frequency. In order to match the B0 to the A0, the frequencies (not musical note!) have to be exactly the same. Close may be good in horseshoes, but in A0-B0 matching, close doesn't cut it. Even one hz off is not a match.

There is a guy in Salem Oregon who has done experiments with fingerboard tap tones and while it is interesting, it is not A0-B0 matching.

hdiddy · #14 10-22-2006, 02:02 PM

After reading Sam's post, I'd like to add to my response from a while back cuz I also don't want to make you think that I'm a hypocrite or something. I always have a habit of tinkering with everything I own so here's what I've done to my Christopher Busetto Hybrid (in this order). The first two happened at the smae time.

1a) Installed a Mike Pecanic tailpiece. It made the strings feel less tense and the sound seemed sound a little more open.
1b) Switched from an aluminium coat hanger to a velvet tailgut. Made the sound a little more open. I played with the gut lengths (thus affecting the afterlengths of the strings). For me, it seemed to affect the feel of the string tension and not so much the sound of the bass. I think I have a wolfy now and moving the lengths back and forth didn't really enhance/reduce it. Still the difference in string tension was kinda subtle.
2) Had two setups done, the last of which was after the tailpiece change. The change was to make the bass more pizz specific and remove some FB buzzing and thickness of the bridge feet. Subtle improvement in the openess of the sound.
3) Switched from a standard metal end-pin to a Norton Custom's graphite end pin. This made a nice difference as the bass sounded louder and more open..

And while all these changes were being made, I kept messing with string sets. By far, strings made a bigger difference that most of the above changes combined. Anything else I haven't done I chose not to since I thought the costs would outweigh the benefits (tuners for example). My intention is to play jazz so I would be using an amp and stuff so I figured I didn't need to get so detailed as the amp/pickups would tend to color the sound anyway. I just change those things that would make the biggest effect that are recommended by other TBers here and there.

But again, I feel that my pizz technique is pretty good as it something that my teacher always concentrates on. Whenever I see other bass players during jam sessions and shows and I notice that those who sound I like have very good technique. To me this is the biggest contributing factor, thus what I wrote before.

Ken McKay · #15 10-22-2006, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by speyer

This is my first post. I have been using talkbass for my bass resouces for about four years, and finally decided to buck up the $ and become a supporting member! To the point... I recently read an article in double bassist magazine about improving the tone of your db. It stated that replacing the components on your bass that impede the free resonance of your instrument can drastically improve overall response. In summary, it said that replacing the metal parts ie: tuning posts, endpin, tailpeice etc. with wooden components will dramatically change the way your instrument resonates. The article made plenty of sense to me, but I am here looking for some more opinions and any hard evidence.

The reason I ask is that I have a new 4string Speyer db that needs a little love. It has a carved spruce top and carved flamed maple back/neck, laminated ribs and despiau hardened bridge. It is a gorgeous instrument and was a hell of an upgrade from my last db. I play mostly pizz and occasionally arco on obligato strings. I love the overall tone of my bass but I have issues with volume different notes when played. For instance why does the D string, or any D for that matter sound really loud and an F so quiet? I understand that this is normal for many instruments (perticularily newer ones) but really... what are the best ways to combat these negative resonating qualities of double basses? Does anyone have any experience using these or other methods of improving overall db respone?

Yes I do and many luthiers specialize in tone adjustments of violin family instruments. I have a lot more experience with violins and cellos but some double bass. The luthiers here or there should be able to perform a proper set up of your instrument and get those resonances in order. It might take a few trials of different approaches but sounds like you have a strong resonance around D that makes all others sound wimpy. Sound post adjustment would be where I would start assuming the bridge is shaped reasonably correct. It could be your post is too tight ...that is my first thought and I would make a new one or shave it down a little ( of course I would measure it first to see where it is before I did that).

Your local luthier could be a great resource for this troubleshooting kind of thing. Where do you live?