interior craftsmanship

Mike D. · #1 01-13-2008, 02:26 PM

Hey all again,
I have a question about my bass' interior construction. The situation is a laminated/plywood bass purchased at $2500 CAD two and a half years ago. It's a fun bass to play and the sound has matured nicely for a plywood bass (although I know any carved or even hybrid bass can trump my plywood bass as far as tone goes). None the less, it's fun to play and I get a decent jazz tone on it and an okay beginner classical arco tone on it.
I've been aquiring a fascination with how these instruments and how they are created as far as materials and craftsmanship are concerned, and I noticed some disctinctive things inside my bass I would like your opinions on (as I am no expert).
The blocks all seem to be in place except they don't seem to have been filed down at all in shape. They are all very square instead of rounded out and filed down to follow the contour of the instrument's sides (a characteristic I noticed in some finer instruments). I guess they didn't bother filing the blocks edges closer and following the contour of the bass because after all, it's a $2500 CAD plywood bass. Or is this a compromise in the structural integrity of the resonating box?
I also noticed some discretion in how close the linings connect with the blocks, sometimes being maybe 3 mm away from touching or connecting to the blocks. This doesn't occur at all corner joints and blocks but some. Is this a compromise in structure of the resonating box, or more of an aesthetic thing found in the finer instruments to have linings neatly leading to blocks?
I also noticed that the linings for the "C" bout's are made up of 2 strips instead of one strip per "C" bout. Is this a compromise in strength and structure of the resonating box?
The glue-work is a bit sloppy as I can see strips of glue that sort of spread as the interior linings and blocks were glued in place, as well as glue stains. Again, this might be done because the bass is a student bass and they're not going to spend too much time inside for a plywood. Or is this a compromise in the structure and strength of the resonating box?
Like I said, I don't think anyone will spend the extra time and finesse in craftsmanship in making a plywood bass, but are any of the characteristics mentioned above problematic and can seriously compromise the strength and structure of the instrument?
All of your comments are greatly appreciated and I thank you all in advance for the neccessary information.
Mike

KSB - Ken Smith · #2 01-13-2008, 03:16 PM

I have seen what you describe in a few Laminated and Hybrid Basses from Romania.

Fitting Blocks and Linings neatly are not always seen on lower cost instruments especially nowadays.

How do they hold up? The ones I have seen have but I have heard of some failures after several years. In time, any joint can come apart regardless of the value of the Bass, the quality of craftsmanship or cost/value.

On an old English Bass of mine recently restored one of the corner blocks needed to be replaced. This was a massive restoration with everything taken apart and put back together along the way. Fitting a Corner Block was not an easy job with extremely pointed corners. As a matter of fact, the first block made didn't make it and had to be done again. This single Block replacement took a good part of 2 days.

Now this is a very valuable Bass so extreme care was taken for every step of the restoration. I doubt that shops would put forth that level of care into the average Laminated, Hybrid or production Bass.

This means that the average Bass is not as pretty to look at inside as it is outside. 'If it aint broke, don't fix it'..

Mike D. · #3 01-13-2008, 03:57 PM

awesome, Thanks Ken for your input. My bass is actually a Czech Republic factory bass from the Strunal instrument company.
It plays well and sounds good for a plywood. And it's got an ebony fingerboard (the cheapest plywood with an ebony fingerboard Strunal makes) which I think is important to prevent neck warping as well as add to the overall tone of the bass as the wood components resonate.
I have been told that Strunal hybrids are supposed to have cleaner workmanship inside and out. I guess it makes sense that there would be a higher level of care placed into the construction of the instrument in instruments of higher quality as their line of Hybrids and Carveds.
It's good to hear that it will probably last despite the imperfections. Eventually, an upgrade will be aquired with higher level craftsmanship hopefully, lol.
Once again, thank you Ken Smith for your input.
any other thoughts from you or others would be appreciated if there is anything to add.
Mike D

toman · #4 01-13-2008, 04:02 PM

If a compromise needs to be made in order to check the end cost, interior beauty is one I'd choose... I don't think a sloppy finish and spilled glue is going to really affect either integrity or sound; it's just indicative of the attitude taken in constructing the bass.

stz · #5 01-14-2008, 03:40 AM

>$2500

Argh! and here is me wanting to get a precision machined instrument for $2000 max!

toman · #6 01-14-2008, 02:04 PM

Precision, machined, instrument and $2000 are all contradictory. Sorry!

KSB - Ken Smith · #7 01-14-2008, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toman

Precision, machined, instrument and $2000 are all contradictory. Sorry!

2k for me is like a new Fingerboard and new Bridge with set-up if I'm lucky. The Bass is not included!

toman · #8 01-14-2008, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KSB - Ken Smith

2k for me is like a new Fingerboard and new Bridge with set-up if I'm lucky. The Bass is not included!

Tell me about it!

james condino · #9 01-15-2008, 02:33 AM

I enjoy it when I open up a nice historic bass and can see all of the tool marks and imperfections inside that show it was made by some long gone craftsman. The blocks always have stories to tell from the fine toothed plane blade markings. It is a nice connection with that original builder.

I'm working on a new bass right now and I purposely left the inside with a few tool marks here and there and a couple of light scorch marks from bending the ribs by hand. It would look a bit cold if there were none of those old signs in there, just cnc machined perfection.

The other side of the equation is when I build a nice mandolin or guitar with side ports and all of the nerdy fellows go over the inside with a magnifying glass because the side ports are an invitaion to look inside and pay attention to the details.

j.
www.condino.com

ctregan · #10 01-15-2008, 06:08 AM

My Mom always said "true beauty lies within".

People always look for negatives when judging craftsmanship, a sloppy interior only leaves you vulnerable to uncalled for criticism.
I was contemplating sanding the interior of my bass to 320 grit; the thought is smoother interior walls may help sound????

Darren Molnar · #11 01-15-2008, 10:02 AM

"The other side of the equation is when I build a nice mandolin or guitar with side ports and all of the nerdy fellows go over the inside with a magnifying glass because the side ports are an invitaion to look inside and pay attention to the details."

These nerdy types drive me crazy. Most times they've never made any thing them selves, yet seem to be full of ideas as to how an instrument maker should be doing things. ( pet peeve )

I like the interiors to reveal the method of construction, ie knife marks, gouge marks, etc
but not in a sloppy way. For example, imagine a sharp knife, and good tool control, trimming a lining from one end to the other. In one stroke. That's beautiful to me. Or a corner block with a finish straight from the sharp gouge. Silky,shimmering, naked looking, impossible with sand paper. Parts should fit together well, that reflects the makers attitude towards the instrument. But going too far in interior finish doesn't look right to me.

There's an old English expression used by the old wood workers that goes " keep you're eyes to London ". Meaning that the front part of their work is what mattered most, the back of it was where you used up the knotted, undersized boards, and didn't fuss around with joinery as much as you do with the business end of the furniture. I don't know if that applies here, but, I thought I'd share one of my favourite expressions.

james condino · #12 01-15-2008, 10:27 AM

Sloppy details and construction are an entirely different conversation from the idea of a well made fine instrument that shows the subtle details of being made by hand. Those fine details often make a big difference when trying to date or authenticate historic instruments.

Before we get anything into the complexity of instrument building, I always suggest to my students that they read James Krenov's classic Impractical Cabintemaker series and The Soul of a Tree by George Nakashima. Once they start to get an understanding of the wood and get a feel for craftmanship then we start on the details of making instruments and how to get there.

That said, I've seen some amazing sounding instruments that looked unbelievably bad inside and outside.

Most builders that I know stop their sanding at 220 grit. Beyond that you start to plug the pores with fine dust that can be visible in the finish work.

j.
www.condino.com

ctregan · #13 01-15-2008, 04:22 PM

[quote=Darren Molnar;5163885]"The other side of the equation is when I build a nice mandolin or guitar with side ports and all of the nerdy fellows go over the inside with a magnifying glass because the side ports are an invitaion to look inside and pay attention to the details."

These nerdy types drive me crazy. Most times they've never made any thing them selves, yet seem to be full of ideas as to how an instrument maker should be doing things. ( pet peeve )

.......and in the end, they never make a purchase.

Silversorcerer · #14 01-15-2008, 05:27 PM

Wow! 2000 CAD for a slopped together laminate!

That doesn't seem like a very good deal. I have a bass with carved top and back, solid maple sides, and very well fitted interior parts all of which are nicely rounded, and it cost me less than U$D2500. I got it from Bob Gollihur brand new in 2005. Sometimes I am very surprised at the large disparities between prices and quality of instruments from different makers and sellers. Here's a picture of what you can see through the f-hole;- scraper marks at the edge of the recurve, rounded linings (with more scraper marks) that fit well, diamond cleats reinforcing the 4 piece carved back, and a very tiny white stain that might be some finish or glue residue (the blocks are also rounded, but not visible in this photo):

This builder took a little pride which was also shown by the certificate of authenticity (signed by the same shop master that also signed the neck block) that came with the instrument stating that it was hand crafted.

ctregan · #15 01-16-2008, 06:26 AM

I have heard of glue sizing or shellac sizing the interiors of basses, is there any reason for doing this? add stiffness? protect from moisture?
Or, on the other hand, is raw wood on the interior the better way to go?

**Damon Rondeau** · #16 01-16-2008, 08:46 AM

Speaking as a woodworker and not a luthier, I can say with confidence the general rule is you never finish one side of a piece of stock, leaving the other side unfinished. It's thought to be a recipe for warping and "uneven" (best word I can think of in a hurry) moisture transfer.

Sizings are used to aid in the staining of some woods that blotch, but also are used as a rough and ready "finish" to balance off a more finely finished other side of a piece of stock. I've been using a half-pound to one-pound shellac cut for this purpose on recent projects and I love it. Shellac rules...