Kay Bass Bar

Thumpie · #1 02-11-2010, 02:16 PM

Hi again,

My luthier says my '47 C -1's bass bar is starting to come unglued from the top.

He says to fix he'll probably need to take off the top. But says I could wait "months" before I fixed this.

Does anybody have any experience with this problem? What happens if I don't get it fixed right now?

Thanks!

Jake deVilliers · #2 02-12-2010, 01:10 AM

If only a small portion of the bar is loose at the top the only concern would be buzzing. If its not buzzing, just play it - hell, if its only buzzing a little bit, play it!

I've seen bars that were half off and didn't cause any permanent damage to the plywood tops. Keep an eye on the E side f-hole - if the inner side starts to go lower than the outer, its time to worry about the bar.

Thumpie · #3 02-12-2010, 07:57 AM

Thanks for the opinion, Jake!

james condino · #4 02-12-2010, 10:08 AM

Loose bass bars are pretty common on old Kays; I probably fix 8-10 a year. I like Jake's approach. Eventually it will come to the point where the thing needs to be reapaired, but if still works reasonable, don't stress over it. You could always get a copy of Chuck Traeger's book and do it yourself- he has a pretty detailed section on bass bars. Fill out the rest of your profile, so we can see where you are located and sometimes offer up local solutions for your questions.

j.

Thumpie · #5 02-12-2010, 11:31 AM

I'll fill out my profile. I'm located in the triangle area of NC. In the past, I've used Bob Beerman in Greensboro. Right now, I'm trying a new guy, Damon Walker, who has come to the area from NYC.

Thumpie · #6 02-12-2010, 11:39 AM

I guess repairing the bass bar means taking off the top, right? Damon said he's going to try to fix it by using a post to hold it in place while the glue drys, but he's not sure he'll be able to do.

I really want to avoid taking the top off!

james condino · #7 02-12-2010, 02:28 PM

Stop by for a visit of you make it up the hill to Asheville, there will likely be at least one old Kay on the workbench undergoing open heart surgery...

j.

Thumpie · #8 02-12-2010, 02:46 PM

I'd love to come by your shop sometime when I'm up there, James...

davpal · #9 02-12-2010, 05:51 PM

I would get it fixed properly as soon as possible. If it's going to take too long or cost too much, find another bass.... just speaking from personal experience. The bass bar came loose on my Kay and due to my neglect (it was my first bass) it really damaged the top.
It would have been much better if I had known the problem and fixed it right away.

superman · #10 02-12-2010, 08:39 PM

You can reglue the bar to the top, for about $20 Harbor freight sells a clamp that will reach all the way to the end of the bar. but I have seen bars that were comming loose bring the plys with it,,,thats some major repair if it happens,just remember to use hide glue.

Thumpie · #11 02-13-2010, 05:37 AM

Good idea, superman. I just found a 12" clamp on there that might do the trick. I'm supposed to pick up my bass today (if the roads are passable), and I'll see if my luthier was able to make any progress with his idea to use a post. If he wasn't able to do it, I'll start thinking about your clamp idea.

I wonder why someone else hasn't thought of this...

james condino · #12 02-13-2010, 08:26 AM

Keeping things simple and not opening the box is nice, but the reality is that I've never had any issue opening up an old Kay lower bout. You can usually bannanna peel open that area in just a few mnutes of work. HOT HIDE GLUE ONLY when you put it back together!!!! I'd also make a strong point that simply adding a bit of glue and a clamp doesn't always solve the problem on an old Kay. The biggest bassbar failure issue I typically see is that the plys separate on the inside and then the bar springs loose. Usually the bar needs to be reglued and then I like to use Treager's method of an oversized cloth / linen / parchment type of oversized graft on top of the bar ends to not only keep the bar tight, but also strengthen the plys and entire area around there. That generally makes for a nice solid repair with no issues that will hold up for a while.

Are you sure that your repair person can get in thorugh the f hole with hot hide glue, do the repair correctly and get everything solid again and not make it look like a superfund site inside with a sloppy mess everywhere???? I do this repair on a regular bases and I can't pull that off to a level that I'm satisfied with all through the hole. I'd trade the extra hour or two of effort to open and reglue the lower bout knowing that I had a rock solid repair rather than a noninvasive ok repair that might let loose in a year. Above everything else, ya need to remember that onwing an old Kay is a lot like owning an old volkswagon (I've had many of both)- it is going to break- a lot- on regular intervals. The nice thing is that they are easy to maintain with a little bit of mechanic skills. For your old Kay, Chuck Traeger's book is the equivalent to the old hippee illustrated John Muir book on keeping your vintage vw alive, without the groovy illustrations...

j.

Thumpie · #13 02-13-2010, 09:08 AM

Thanks for the perspective, James.

Damon Walker, my luthier, said he plans to open the top on the edge at the bottom of the lower bout if he can get a post to work.

Anyway, he also said, that in his experience, opening a top makes an instrument sound better, so maybe I shouldn't be so afraid of having it done. (My main fear is that doing so will change the character of the instrument for the worse.)

The main problem is being without my Kay during the week (or weeks) when it'll be at the shop. My other bass, a cheapie Chinese, is really uninspiring to play now!

danthebassman07 · #14 03-04-2010, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by james condino

Keeping things simple and not opening the box is nice, but the reality is that I've never had any issue opening up an old Kay lower bout. You can usually bannanna peel open that area in just a few mnutes of work. HOT HIDE GLUE ONLY when you put it back together!!!! I'd also make a strong point that simply adding a bit of glue and a clamp doesn't always solve the problem on an old Kay. The biggest bassbar failure issue I typically see is that the plys separate on the inside and then the bar springs loose. Usually the bar needs to be reglued and then I like to use Treager's method of an oversized cloth / linen / parchment type of oversized graft on top of the bar ends to not only keep the bar tight, but also strengthen the plys and entire area around there. That generally makes for a nice solid repair with no issues that will hold up for a while.

Are you sure that your repair person can get in thorugh the f hole with hot hide glue, do the repair correctly and get everything solid again and not make it look like a superfund site inside with a sloppy mess everywhere???? I do this repair on a regular bases and I can't pull that off to a level that I'm satisfied with all through the hole. I'd trade the extra hour or two of effort to open and reglue the lower bout knowing that I had a rock solid repair rather than a noninvasive ok repair that might let loose in a year. Above everything else, ya need to remember that onwing an old Kay is a lot like owning an old volkswagon (I've had many of both)- it is going to break- a lot- on regular intervals. The nice thing is that they are easy to maintain with a little bit of mechanic skills. For your old Kay, Chuck Traeger's book is the equivalent to the old hippee illustrated John Muir book on keeping your vintage vw alive, without the groovy illustrations...

j.

James I need to talk to you. I tried to look up your number on whitepages.com and couldn't find it. I will keep looking.

I have a 39 Kay that has a rattle that has came on in the last month or so and you don't seem all that far away.

Danny

gp_bass · #15 03-04-2010, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by james condino

I do this repair on a regular bases and I can't pull that off to a level that I'm satisfied with all through the hole.

j.

James,

Love your VW analogy. One question: if the bar is only loose at one end, do you remove it and refit completely, or just glue the loose end?

james condino · #16 03-05-2010, 12:38 AM

I'm no Kay Jedi, and the standards that I work to may be different from others. I happen to live in an area with probably one of the highest concentrations of old Kays in the country and the regional styles of music enjoy it when bass players beat the crap out of their basses in the name of fun (I just got back in from a gig at the pub doing just that). They also have an almost cult like subculture that worships old Kays. Funny as it sounds to some of us, an old Kay is the gold standard- the Blueridge Cadillac, and a lot of the owners are very fussy about maintaining originality and maintaining all of the factory parts and specs that you can. They are in high demand and catch top dollar. Vintage Kays sell in a couple of days around here and yet an old carved Juzek or such will sit around for 6-9 months and go for less than the top end of the Kay market.

It depends upon where the bar came loose. Is it a top / bassbar glueline separation? If so, I'd consider the rest of the glue joint potentially just as week and would completely remove the original bar, clean everything up, reinstall that bar with hot hide glue, and add the overlays on the ends. If the separation was in the top plys when the bar sprung loose, then I'd consider it an issue of the plys. Usually this scenario pulls off a big flap of the top with it. If everything else looked reasonable, I'd probably leave it as is and focus on glueing the flapper section back down nice and solid and then add an oversized overlay on the repaired area and put a smaller preventative one on the good end of the bar.

I only replace the bassbar if it is broken and try not to alter anything unless the customer asks for it. To my ear and the manner in which I play, I think a new bassbar and thickening the top a little in a few areas similar to the way Chuck describes it in his book along with changing the neck angle on one of these older basses results in a much improved voice and volume, but it also changes that "Kay sound" that some folks are very particular about. They "Don't want no nothin' about those sissy big city modifications....I'm a Kay man damned it; all ways have been, always will be!"

Over the next month, there will be a '53 Kay that was all busted up in a car wreck last month up on one of the operating tables as it gets basically completely disassembled and put back together. Anyone interested is welcome to stop by and get at look at things.

j.

Gearhead43 · #17 03-05-2010, 01:18 AM

James, the Kay cult status runs through alot of the Roots music scene across the whole country, and not just Bluegrassers. Most of the slap bass players I know don't like luthiers making "improvements" to Kays either. Increasing the neck angle is not considered very desirable, as it can effect the feel of string tension and overall "slappability"

The thin necks are well liked also.

Take a nice old vintage Kay, increase the neck angle, scrap the rosewood fingerboard, install a big fat neck, remove the "yucky" original nitro finish, etc etc - and you just ruined a Kay, as far as I am concerned.

We like them the way they are.

drurb · #18 03-05-2010, 06:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gearhead43

Take a nice old vintage Kay, increase the neck angle, scrap the rosewood fingerboard, install a big fat neck, remove the "yucky" original nitro finish, etc etc - and you just ruined a Kay, as far as I am concerned.

We like them the way they are.

That really captures well the "cult" nature of their value. Make a better double bass out of them and they're worth less because you've spoiled the originality*. Their value is their inherent "Kay-ness."

* Yes, I know, it is only my opinion of what is "better" but that opinion seems to coincide with what most consider to be improvements along the dimensions of what makes a good instrument.

james condino · #19 03-05-2010, 01:29 PM

A good friend of mine, grammy winner, hall of fame guru, and hard working bass player, and owner of an original spec rebuilt '41 Kay, always gets in a few good laughs at how an old Kay, originally designed as a cheap student utility instrument that would hold up on the roof of the tour bus and could be replaced for a few hundred dollars in the next town's pawnshop if it fell off, could somehow be elevated to iconic status and then reminds me that they will all eventually wind up in the landfill with the rest of the cheap disposable plywood stuff from the 20th century....just like all of those underpowered, funky designed, not very practical as an actual car, terminally broken, always freezing cold or overheating old volkswagons that go for hefty five figures with the original 35 hp motors.

The '53 will be coming back to life completely stock, except for a 1/4 pound of fresh hide glue...

j.

JJDMusic · #20 03-05-2010, 02:02 PM

I had this problem a few years ago on my '61 Kay C-1... the bass bar was coming loose on both ends and caused a sever rattle/buzz. I took it to one guy and he could not figure out the problem, then I went to Gage in NY they spotted it right away and were able to fix it. They did not take the top off! They simply put linen on the ends of the bass bar. Almost like linen pockets. Buzz was gone and the bass bar seems to be on there pretty solid years later.