Ken McKay Behlen's question

[Don Harris]

Ken, or anyone else who's had experience with Behlen's Rock Hard Table Varnish, were you happy with your results? Would you use it again on a bass?

All of my varnish tests have been with Rock Hard and I'm really happy with how it's working. I know that some guitar builders are using it with success. I'm just wondering if there's any downside using it on a bass.

[Bob Branstetter]

Originally Posted by Don Harris

Ken, or anyone else who's had experience with Behlen's Rock Hard Table Varnish, were you happy with your results? Would you use it again on a bass?

All of my varnish tests have been with Rock Hard and I'm really happy with how it's working. I know that some guitar builders are using it with success. I'm just wondering if there's any downside using it on a bass.

I've used Behlen's RHTV on several bass re-varnish jobs with generally good results. I colored it with the commercial (German) oil colors available from Howard Core, International Violin or one of the other violin supply houses. It brushes fairly easily and it can even be sprayed when thinned down with their reducer. It is a very hard finish, but rubs down OK. However, I have found it to be more "chippy" than most real commercial violin oil varnishes and that is one reason why I won't be using it on the bass that I am building for my personal use. For that one, I plan to use Bill Fulton's Terpene varnish (if I don't burn down the house while cooking it) over Fulton's Propolis soap ground.

[Ken McKay]

Originally Posted by Don Harris

Ken, or anyone else who's had experience with Behlen's Rock Hard Table Varnish, were you happy with your results? Would you use it again on a bass?

All of my varnish tests have been with Rock Hard and I'm really happy with how it's working. I know that some guitar builders are using it with success. I'm just wondering if there's any downside using it on a bass.

I am happy with the varnish itself and I would recommend it to bass finishers. As most of us know, no one is satisfied with their varnish and it is a never ending search. As one writer in the Big Red Book from American Lutherie (forgot author) wrote, "...a guy could waste half his life messing around with varnishmaking...". So, yes, I do recommend it as a good finish. The ground is perhaps more important and shellac seems to win out for basses I think.

Some fine makers use homemade varnish with good results using drying oil and resins, others use spirit type varnishes with good results, and some use plain old shellac for the whole bass with good results.

Good luck Don...getting exciting at this point!

[Don Harris]

At this point I'm leaning toward an amber shellac ground with asphalt tinted Rock Hard to build up color. The bass is ready to varnish, but my amber shellac/asphalt test strips were done on wood that had been finished and stripped and is very chippy. But everything I've done on stripped wood so far has been the same (chips right down to the wood), So I'm starting over on fresh wood with a test. I was going to do Transtint in shellac with rock hard in between coats (tests have been perfect), but as Bob pointed out, I'm a little nervous about lightfastness, and the asphalt looks less "dirty"-more transparent.

A friend just made some fused amber varnish and did his recently completed violin in it. After two or three weeks it's still sticky feeling to me. He's thrilled that it's drying compared to the first few days, but it would make me really nervous. That's why I'm steering away from home made varnish this time around. Too many variables.

[arnoldschnitzer]

If you use the Behlen's you will need to thin it almost 50%. Otherwise your bass will have a massive "raincoat" after the 5-10 coats you'll need.

[Don Harris]

Thanks Arnold

[basswraith]

The term "Rock Hard" kinda of turns me off. Don't we want our oil varnishes to be flexible enough for string instruments? Should this not be some thing to be concerned about with this product?
So far we have concluded:
Its very easy to apply,
It dries fast,
Has a nice color to begin with,
Its chippy.
Any other characteristics worth noting?

[Bob Branstetter]

Originally Posted by Don Harris

A friend just made some fused amber varnish and did his recently completed violin in it. After two or three weeks it's still sticky feeling to me. He's thrilled that it's drying compared to the first few days, but it would make me really nervous. That's why I'm steering away from home made varnish this time around. Too many variables.

I've seen some violins done with fused Amber varnish and the results were truly beautiful. Your friend should consider building an ultraviolet drying cabinet. That would cut the drying time down to days instead of weeks. I had an ultraviolet drying cabinet for basses in my old house, but had to disassemble it when I moved into my present house. I've played with the idea of building a new cabinet that could be more easily disassembled and stored since it just takes up so much space. I'll probably need it if I use the Fulton Terpene Varnish on my bass (that I never seem to have time to complete).

[Darren Molnar]

I started out as basswraith is thinking. But it sounds like the name was just ascribed to it to help with sales to another market.

The more that the people who have used it describe it, the more promising it sounds. It sounds that it has the same synthetic resin that is in a lot of oil painting mediums, such as Liquin,( a time tested and proven product for oil painters) and is basically a short oil varnish. Changing the properties to some extent sounds as simple as adding linseed oil to increase the open time, as well as giving it some more flexibility. Changing it to a long oil varnish, basically. That should make it less chippy? Maybe?

[Ken McKay]

Originally Posted by basswraith

The term "Rock Hard" kinda of turns me off. Don't we want our oil varnishes to be flexible enough for string instruments? Should this not be some thing to be concerned about with this product?
So far we have concluded:
Its very easy to apply,
It dries fast,
Has a nice color to begin with,
Its chippy.
Any other characteristics worth noting?

Yea it stinks.

[Don Harris]

Here's what Alan Carruth says on a guitar building forum about Rock Hard:

"I use Rockhard thinned about 1/3 with mineral spirits, and add about 5% acetone ad a small amount (drops per pint) of kerosene. The acetone helps it 'bite' into the prior coat a little, and 'flashes off' fairly quickly. You can 'pull' the coat out pretty thin while the acetone is still there and then the coat thickens up enough to not run (you hope). The kerosene acts as a brushing agent so that you can pull it on a bit thinner.

Recoat time is the key to avoiding witness lines. The first coat will be tacky for quite a while: maybe a day, but after that you can get on two coats a day eight hours apart. Those two coats will melt together well enough that you can treat them as one. Because of the way I thin it the stuff goes on very level if I'm careful, and needs little leveling out in between coats."


My samples probably haven't been drying long enough to comment, but I've found that chippiness has more to do with what's underneath the Rock Hard. On the samples that work, I can abuse the RH and not chip it.

I like the way it smells.

[Bob Branstetter]

Originally Posted by Don Harris

My samples probably haven't been drying long enough to comment, but I've found that chippiness has more to do with what's underneath the Rock Hard. On the samples that work, I can abuse the RH and not chip it.

I like the way it smells.

I didn't observe the chippyness on basses until several months after I rubbed them down. I believe it takes quite a while for this varnish to be totally dry/cured. It didn't seem to matter what I used for the ground or if a ground was used on the bare wood.

[arnoldschnitzer]

On the subject of chippiness in oil-based varnishes: my experience has been that any oil varnish becomes chippy when laid over a shellac (spirit) base. I think the bond between the shellac and oil varnish is stronger than that between the shellac and the wood. Conjecture on my part, but I have varnished many, many basses and I no longer seal with shellac because of what I have observed.

[basswraith]

What do you seal it with in this case?

[arnoldschnitzer]

Seal it with your oil varnish thinned 40% or so. Or apply a coat of drying oil (linseed, tung, etc.), let dry thoroughly and then put on thinned varnish. I like two sealer coats before getting into heavy color.