lining questions

Kev2007 · #1 03-04-2009, 08:32 AM

Hi all

I'm muddling through my first wee DB build, and I've got a couple of questions about lining:

1) I understand that spruce, willow, etc. are prefered for lining. Why? It seems to me that the purpose of the lining is to increase the glueing surface for the top and back. It seems logical to me that you would make the lining out of the same material, if not the same stock, the ribs are made from. A soft wood like spruce expands and contracts at a different rate than, say, the maple it's glued to. Wouldn't it therefore be preferable to use the same wood? I can't see weight being a significant issue here. In other words, I think I'm missing a point somehere along the way...

2) "Letting in" the lining to the corner and end blocks. Chandler has a very nice photo of this in his book, but no explanation of how-to. Having got that far, I can't figure out how you'd cut into the blocks to let the piece in, especially after the sides are glued on. It's very thin, tapered, etc. Is it just the top of the lining that's extended in, or the whole lining? Is this technique even necessary?

Thanks for your time,

Kev

BTW - it was me, you might recall, who was asking about bending hickory a while back. I decided for my first build I'd stick with the more conventional wood, and am using maple.

1st Bass · #2 03-04-2009, 10:14 AM

I use a very sharp, narrow, curved chisel (It is also my purfling pick--made by Millers Falls, but they are out of business...), and cut the slots from the sides of the blocks angled toward the ends, at about a 45 degree angle. I cut the ends of the ribs to match.

Some people cut them full depth...and I know one guy who uses a sharp knife, and not only cuts at a 45 deg. slant, he also bevels the cut, and bevels the end of the rib, too. It works, and it is easy.

I happen to like willow because it carves so nicely, when it is time to shape the linings. When you bend it, it stays bent. It is less likely to split than spruce (my opinion), and softer than Maple. It can be hard to come by, though, and I am currently running low-- gonna have to talk to a guy down the road, and see if I can knock another limb off his tree. :-)

Chet

arnoldschnitzer · #3 03-04-2009, 11:15 AM

I think lining material makes little if any difference. Letting in the linings at the blocks is unnecessary if the linings are properly bent and they fit.

Caoimhín · #4 03-04-2009, 12:13 PM

I was just making a set of linings for my first violin today and all I can say is willow is really lovely to work with compared to the tricksy flamed maple of the ribs.

My tutor told me that Strad used the sort of mortice-like channel that takes the full depth of the lining and Del Gesu used the bevelled method as described by 1st Bass. Comes down to preference I suppose - and whether you have a narrow enough chisel (2mm) for the mortice method!

Or if you're as good as Arnold you can dispense with it altogether. That'd be nice

Ken McKay · #5 03-05-2009, 07:33 AM

I agree with Arnold and do and don't inlet my linings into the blocks. On violins I do it in the c bout but not the lower and upper as strad did. The reason Strad and del Gesu did this is because it added some resistance to popping off when they took the garland off the mold. It needs to spread a little and this can cause that part of the lining to pop off. Rocca did it on once bass I saw and he was a great, post golden period Italian maker. But if you are using a multi part mold that collapses, the you won't need to spread the garland so you can go either way.

Avoid a splitty type of wood like cedar because it is only good for one or two gluings of the top (or back).

Ken McKay · #6 03-05-2009, 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken McKay

I agree with Arnold and do and don't inlet my linings into the blocks. On violins I do it in the c bout but not the lower and upper as strad did. The reason Strad and del Gesu did this is because it added some resistance to popping off when they took the garland off the mold. It needs to spread a little and this can cause that part of the lining to pop off. Rocca did it on once bass I saw and he was a great, post golden period Italian maker. But if you are using a multi part mold that collapses, the you won't need to spread the garland so you can go either way.

Avoid a splitty type of wood like cedar because it is only good for one or two gluings of the top (or back).

He Chet, have him knock one down for me too.

Kev2007 · #7 03-05-2009, 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken McKay

Avoid a splitty type of wood like cedar because it is only good for one or two gluings of the top (or back).

No worries, this top's going on with epoxy and roofing nails.

Seriously, this is all great advice. Thanks for taking the time.

So much to learn...

Kev

arnoldschnitzer · #8 03-05-2009, 11:04 AM

I like willow, too. It bends like rubber. But it's very hard to find decent willow with reasonably straight grain.

1st Bass · #9 03-05-2009, 02:48 PM

I cut my own, and then when running it through the bandsaw, I simply followed the grain-- so that the grain was straight, and the lining was not, if you follow the reasoning...the stuff bends so nicely that you can take that wandering strip of willow and bend it to exactly what you want, and the grain will then follow the mold.

If you DO cut your own willow, be advised that it will attempt to grow, anywhere you set it down. No exaggeration: I laid down the pile of 6"-10" logs I cut, and let them sit a few weeks, because I was busy-- when I came back, the ones in contact with the ground had roots nearly 1" long all over the downside, coming directly out of the crevices in the bark, and tiny leaves, as thick as grass all over the top side.

Want your own willow tree? (I advise against it.) Just drop a chunk in the corner of your yard, water it occasionally, and let it be. If you ask any of the arborists and tree-removal people in your area, they can probably get you all the fresh-cut willow you want, for free.

Chet

arnoldschnitzer · #10 03-05-2009, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1st Bass

I cut my own, and then when running it through the bandsaw, I simply followed the grain-- so that the grain was straight, and the lining was not, if you follow the reasoning...

Cool idea, but then how do you accurately thickness the pieces and make them square?

forester · #11 03-05-2009, 05:01 PM

+1 on willow and its' progeny
+2 for picking a tree and naming your price
-1 kev for... abandoning the hickory

Kev2007 · #12 03-05-2009, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by forester

-1 kev for... abandoning the hickory

Hey! not fair! it's my first DB 'build', I'm learning.

Don't worry, you'll see me experiment plenty with wood and design in the future, once I figure all this bending/hyde glue/dovetailing/carving stuff out. Actually, there's a fair amount of pretty 'different' stuff on this one.

Stay tuned for more questions.

Kev

1st Bass · #13 03-05-2009, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldschnitzer

Cool idea, but then how do you accurately thickness the pieces and make them square?

As noted, the stuff is quite flexible-- cut green, you can bind it straight, and let it dry-- or even just let it dry whichever way.

Then I run it through a jig I made for my oscillating spindle sander for thickness accuracy-- usually I plane one edge straight, then scribe from that edge to establish the other, which can either be sawn or planed, depending on how close it is.

My son has an abrasive planer that he uses to establish the thickness of the plates for the guitars he builds...it works even better-- self-feeding, very accurate, no jig to fool with. That works great, but it isn't mine. I have a thing about using my own tools, mostly.

JKoehler · #14 03-07-2009, 05:07 PM

Not to take away from the original posting, but has anybody ever used western balsam poplar for linings? I`ve been trying to find some willow for my bass build with no luck, and Bruce from Orcas Island has this poplar that he was saying has the same properties as willow. Or, if anyone has some willow out there that they would like to part with, please PM me. Thanks.

**Matthew Tucker** · #15 03-09-2009, 04:49 AM

*I* think the best wood for linings is whatever you've got lying around, provided it has reasonably straight grain. Hardwoods usually bend better than softwoods.

Jake deVilliers · #16 03-09-2009, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JKoehler

Bruce from Orcas Island has this poplar that he was saying has the same properties as willow

Bruce knows his woods - I'd take his word for it. I'm saving up for some of that poplar myself so I can build a bass.