Low-cost bass viol at GAL?

[MPU]

Hello,
has anyone made the low-cost bass viol from Guild of American Luthiers plans?
http://www.luth.org/plans/pl29.jpg
I know it will not be anything like the "real" ones made of fancy woods and all, but the idea of making a cheapish double bass really makes me want to try one.
Marko

[james condino]

Marko:

I love the GAL. They are a great group of many of my mentors, my friends, my peers, and I write for them regularly, but....

For all of the time you will invest in making your own bass, the cost of materials matters very little. If you are patient and look around, you can build a great fully carved bass for the price of a cheap import, and the results will likely sound much better than a ply model. Have you read this thread:

james' bass build

j.

[MPU]

Hi James,
I've read your thread a couple of times. Nice work and I really like the scroll-less headstock. I'm going to do something similar as I'm not too big fan of traditional scroll headstock.
I guess you're right about the woods. My plan right now is to make an electric upright this winter and play it to see if I really like the big bass. I'm making the neck so that I can use it in the "real" one if I deside to make one. I'm hoping to find woods for the double bass during spring and summer and make one during next winter.
Marko

[xwtb]

Originally Posted by MPU

Hello,
has anyone made the low-cost bass viol from Guild of American Luthiers plans? I know it will not be anything like the "real" ones made of fancy woods and all, but the idea of making a cheapish double bass really makes me want to try one.

I talked to someone about ten years ago who had actually made one of these "Low Cost" basses. He was pleased with the resulting instrument, and played it in his local civic orchestra. He may well be the only person other than the creators of the GAL plans who's actually carried them out (at least, if Google is to be believed.)

I have the #29 plans. There are some problems with them: they rely on some novel building techniques, but the documentation is to be found mainly in two articles in American Lutherie, the GAL mag. Off-prints of these articles are no longer available. They were reprinted in different volumes of The Big Red Book of American Lutherie (a GAL best-of collection) which are hard to find. Your local library can track them down, but copy fees will run you $20 or more, in addition to what you paid for the plans.

One of the few people who've mentioned them on TB quipped that these plans could have come from Popular Mechanics mag. I mean, _masonite_ fingerboard?!? Gimme a break! Still, I've picked up some stimulating ideas from them: multi-piece carved top, glued-up top block, electric bass tuners, boltless removable neck (not stated, but implied) and diy bendable plywood for the ribs.

Save your money on the plans: I'll sell you my copy for cheap.

[james condino]

The Big Red Book series are pretty easy to acquire. You can get the directly from the GAL (www.luth.org) and from Stew Mac: http://www.stewmac.com/shopby/product/5503

As for the original post plans, they were an interesting idea in their time, but I'd have to say that they are dated today. Now we've got many sources of information- Peter Chandler's, several differnt blueprints / plans available, and a world of info available on the web.

For my build, using highly figured woods for the ribs and back took up half the cost of the instrument. True, they are almost intoxicatingly beautiful, but fancy figure and great tone have no direct correlation. If cost is really that critical, you could do just as well using simple unfigured materials for about 1/3 the price. Again, you could also save about half of the remaining price by using a domestic hardwood for the fingerboard and fittings.

I have some hard Michigan maple that I got a few years back that is almost as dense as ebony- carving it feels like I'm Michaelangelo chiseling away at a nice chunk of Dolomite marble. I'd have no problem using that for a fingerboard. For now, you can still regularly find a nice 6' long x 4"wide x 1" thick quartersawn board of ebony for about $150. Some folks will tell you that isn't possible, but I buy two or three this size every year, of excellent grade. Look around, ask questions, and have patience ( notice a theme?).

If you are patient and thrifty, my guess is that you could build a very nice sounding and playing bass for $600 or less in wood. I spent approx. $1600 total , including strings and those fancy $400 tuning machines. I could have easily done it for half. That said, I still think it is almost irrelevant to someone building their first bass. Purchase it in segments-ribs, back, top, neck....and build as you go along. By the time you finally are finished with that step,another few hundred dollars for the next step is pretty simple. True, none of that takes account of seasoning. For me, I found the biggest issue was finding pieces that were large enough and of the quality that I wanted, not paying for them. I spent three years acquiring materials one piece at a time, before I lifted a chisel or plane.

I know someone who has a few nice sitka tops for sale that have been seasoned almost ten years. You can pick them up in person and play a beautiful bass made from the same tree. For a few more rupees, you could also have them joined and glued up- ready to go. It is pretty sweet to see how incredibly nice a surface you will get on the inside face and the center joint when you are using a late 1930s vintage Oliver Machine 20" wide joiner that is fine tuned to perfection...imagine if Prescott made woodworking machinery...

j.

[MPU]

I have some parts already. I bought a used ebony fingerboard for 60 € and maple for the neck. I also have double bass tuners. As I said, these will go to my EUB neck which I'm going to make so that it can be used on DB if I deside to make one. I'm going to search spruce for the top locally. I don't mind if it's multi-piece as long as it's quartersawn and straight-grained. As for back and ribs I'll try to find some local woods. No fancy figuring on the first one.
Marko

[gbaker]

I have been corresponding with a gentleman who is presently building one. He has carved the top (with integral bass bar), bent the ribs and back and is working on the neck. He is progressing fast and says that at the very least he has gained the confidence to carve a top - even a real $700 blank.

He is keeping a low profile until he finishes then maybe he will share some pix.

I heard a different one about four years ago - not bad.

[MPU]

Originally Posted by gbaker

I have been corresponding with a gentleman who is presently building one. He has carved the top (with integral bass bar), bent the ribs and back and is working on the neck. He is progressing fast and says that at the very least he has gained the confidence to carve a top - even a real $700 blank.

He is keeping a low profile until he finishes then maybe he will share some pix.

I heard a different one about four years ago - not bad.

Hi,
would it be possible that you could ask him if he would like to share his project via PM or email? I'd really like to talk with him about his experiences.
Marko

[gbaker]

Originally Posted by MPU

Hi,
would it be possible that you could ask him if he would like to share his project via PM or email? I'd really like to talk with him about his experiences.
Marko

PM replied to.

[George700DL]

Hi Marko, as I mentioned in the PM, I will make a post once the bass is done. I'm varnishing this week...too busy for the internet right now

George

[George700DL]

Originally Posted by xwtb

I talked to someone about ten years ago who had actually made one of these "Low Cost" basses. He was pleased with the resulting instrument, and played it in his local civic orchestra. He may well be the only person other than the creators of the GAL plans who's actually carried them out (at least, if Google is to be believed.)

I have the #29 plans. There are some problems with them: they rely on some novel building techniques, but the documentation is to be found mainly in two articles in American Lutherie, the GAL mag. Off-prints of these articles are no longer available. They were reprinted in different volumes of The Big Red Book of American Lutherie (a GAL best-of collection) which are hard to find. Your local library can track them down, but copy fees will run you $20 or more, in addition to what you paid for the plans.

One of the few people who've mentioned them on TB quipped that these plans could have come from Popular Mechanics mag. I mean, _masonite_ fingerboard?!? Gimme a break! Still, I've picked up some stimulating ideas from them: multi-piece carved top, glued-up top block, electric bass tuners, boltless removable neck (not stated, but implied) and diy bendable plywood for the ribs.

Save your money on the plans: I'll sell you my copy for cheap.

I just built this bass, but with my own modifications. I have The Big Red Book vol 1-5, but saw the related article only in Vol2 - did GAL merge the 2 articles into 1? Or is there an article that I'm missing? I'd be curious.

I should point out one thing re: the popular mechanics mag reference: The author stresses throughout every part of the article that he is out to prove an abstract point - using cheap materials - and that the reader should explore on his/her own and use better materials. The author set a constraint on himself to only use materials from a single lumberyard. It is just as easy, actually easier, to find a nice piece of hardwood to use for the fingerboard than to make some type of contraption out of 2x4 and MDF.

I actually didn't go for the alternative neck joint suggested in the article - I chose the traditional joint. Also, my neck is solid wood, not plywood. I took the time to make real purfing, I installed a soundpost patch, etc etc. All these deviations were encouraged by the author.

Overall, this was a really fun and satisfying project. But it's not for everyone. You gotta love the process itself, otherwise it's not worth it.

George

[xwtb]

Originally Posted by George700DL

I just built this bass, but with my own modifications. I have The Big Red Book vol 1-5, but saw the related article only in Vol2 - did GAL merge the 2 articles into 1? Or is there an article that I'm missing? I'd be curious. <snip>

Overall, this was a really fun and satisfying project. But it's not for everyone. You gotta love the process itself, otherwise it's not worth it.

George

I've not actually seen either article-- what info I have I got from the GAL website: Part 1 from the Winter 1990 issue (#24) of American Lutherie, was included in The Big Red Book Vm II (1990); Part 2, from the Spring 1991 issue 25 of A.L. (#25) was (supposedly) included in Vm III (1993.)

I assume you found the Vm II article a useful supplement to the overview included with the plans-- would the two together have been sufficient, in your view, for building the whole bass?

I'm wondering if you reduced your ribs to thickness by hand. Anticipating that this would be extremely tedious, I tried an electric bench planer: disastrous. What worked well, though, was many passes through a drum sander.

Will be looking forward to your pix and account of the process!

LFMiller

[George700DL]

Originally Posted by xwtb

I've not actually seen either article-- what info I have I got from the GAL website: Part 1 from the Winter 1990 issue (#24) of American Lutherie, was included in The Big Red Book Vm II (1990); Part 2, from the Spring 1991 issue 25 of A.L. (#25) was (supposedly) included in Vm III (1993.)

I assume you found the Vm II article a useful supplement to the overview included with the plans-- would the two together have been sufficient, in your view, for building the whole bass?

I'm wondering if you reduced your ribs to thickness by hand. Anticipating that this would be extremely tedious, I tried an electric bench planer: disastrous. What worked well, though, was many passes through a drum sander.

Will be looking forward to your pix and account of the process!

LFMiller

Looking at VOl III now - nothing by Frederick Lyman, nothing about uprights in general either. Maybe GAL combined the articles into the single VOL II article.

I got the plans directly from GAL. THEN I saw all 5 Big Red Book volumes on eBay, so I bought them. You need the article - the text included with the plans skips a bunch of sections - important ones, I would say. I didn't understand some things included with the plans, until I read the full article.

Which pictures would you be most interested in? I will post those you'd find most useful.

My ribs are laminate - baltic birch plywood - I believe it's 3-ply. The thickness is already 2.5mm. I'd say that's nearly perfect. I bent them with heat, just like you would normal wood. You're technically not supposed to heat-bend plywood (it hurts the glue), but I threw caution to the wind and did it anyway. It turned out OK.

If I ever make another db, I'll go with all wood. But I wasn't after perfection with this one.

George

[xwtb]

Originally Posted by George700DL

You need the article - the text included with the plans skips a bunch of sections - important ones, I would say. I didn't understand some things included with the plans, until I read the full article.

Which pictures would you be most interested in? I will post those you'd find most useful.

Very strange about the second article. Maybe it just said "April Fool"! :>)

The part in the plans' overview that worried me the most was the business about contouring the strips for the top lamination by adjusting the angle of the bandsaw table _on the fly_!! Here I decided further documentation was in order, and felt rather snookered by GAL when I discovered that offprints of the article were no longer available. Any light (photographic or otherwise) you can throw on that process would be much appreciated!

Congratulations on a very nice result. I'm sure it'll be inspirational to lots of others around TB.

LFMiller

[George700DL]

Originally Posted by xwtb

Very strange about the second article. Maybe it just said "April Fool"! :>)

The part in the plans' overview that worried me the most was the business about contouring the strips for the top lamination by adjusting the angle of the bandsaw table _on the fly_!! Here I decided further documentation was in order, and felt rather snookered by GAL when I discovered that offprints of the article were no longer available. Any light (photographic or otherwise) you can throw on that process would be much appreciated!

Congratulations on a very nice result. I'm sure it'll be inspirational to lots of others around TB.

LFMiller

OK, I know exactly what you mean, and there I deviated from the plans - because I could not see myself getting the curvature anywhere close by tilting the bandsaw table (on a 10" Craftsman bandsaw) while pushing the stock through, and THEN being able to do a clean joint to the next strip. So I skipped that part, and basically only cut a rough shape to each strip (excluding any table tilting), with plenty of wood left on both outside and inside contour. Then I glued them as normal, which ultimately left me with something very remotely resembling a blank that has only slightly begun to take shape. At this stage, it looked really ugly, with all the glue lines etc.

From that point, carving as usual took place - chisels, a gouge, and a single finger plane. Then scraping - and yes, some sandpaper use also.

Maybe I'm a wood nerd, but I really enjoyed the carving part itself. It didn't seem like "work".

I figured the biggest objection I would get would be the carved-in bass bar. That was just pure laziness on my part. My go-bar capabilities are limited right now (unless you count PVC pipes and a ceiling) and I figured carving in the bar would eliminate a dilema.

I'll later post some pictures of the glued-up blank and subsequent carving.

George