More mass = better sound?

Mike Goodbar · #1 12-24-2009, 08:26 AM

PRE-AMBLE:
I currently play on a 7/8 hybrid Christopher bass, which I consider to be a "decent" bass. I bought it when I was primarily was playing jazz and found it to be loud and deep enough for playing unamped in many situations, plus it amplifies quite well when needed. It's currently all "stock" including bridge and tailpiece.

My focus in the last year or so has switched to classical -- playing in the local community orchestras and such. I've found my bass' performance to be somewhat inadequate for this duty. Best I can describe the sound under the bow is "flabby" and "unfocused." I've had it set up (bridge, soundpost, tailpiece cable) by a luthier, and I believe it is playing at its optimal level as it is currently outfitted.

MY QUESTION:
I've noticed that when I play with the mute (I use a rubber Tourte mute), though smaller, the sound immediately becomes more focused, and I even noticed that it is more responsive under the bow. Obviously, I don't want to play with the mute on all the time, but is this an indication that my bass is asking for more mass, perhaps a heavier tailpiece? Or am I thinking silk purse/sow's ear again?

AMJBASS · #2 12-24-2009, 09:28 AM

The tailpiece can have significant effect on the tone/feel of the instrument IME. A heavier tailpiece(ebony) can darken a brighter sounding bass. Conversly a lighter tailpiece(boxwood. maple etc) can liven up a darker bass. Some instruments just respond better with the heavier TP.

drurb · #3 12-24-2009, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Goodbar

PRE-AMBLE:
I currently play on a 7/8 hybrid Christopher bass, which I consider to be a "decent" bass. I bought it when I was primarily was playing jazz and found it to be loud and deep enough for playing unamped in many situations, plus it amplifies quite well when needed. It's currently all "stock" including bridge and tailpiece.

My focus in the last year or so has switched to classical -- playing in the local community orchestras and such. I've found my bass' performance to be somewhat inadequate for this duty. Best I can describe the sound under the bow is "flabby" and "unfocused." I've had it set up (bridge, soundpost, tailpiece cable) by a luthier, and I believe it is playing at its optimal level as it is currently outfitted.

MY QUESTION:
I've noticed that when I play with the mute (I use a rubber Tourte mute), though smaller, the sound immediately becomes more focused, and I even noticed that it is more responsive under the bow. Obviously, I don't want to play with the mute on all the time, but is this an indication that my bass is asking for more mass, perhaps a heavier tailpiece? Or am I thinking silk purse/sow's ear again?

I wouldn't necessarily conclude that your bass performs better with more mass. Now, I haven't heard what's going on so I'm taking an educated guess. I've experienced the effect you're talking about. It was back when I had a Kay C-1 and was using it for orchestra work (all I could afford at the time-- decades ago). Indeed, the sound with the mute is, as you say, "smaller," i.e., less intense. What the mute is doing is cutting many of the upper partials so that the sound that results is somewhat darker and deeper. That won't cut it in the orchestra because it won't have much power. What you seem to want is a more powerful, darker sound. I don't think that'll come easily or cheaply. My first thought was to consult a good luthier to see if the setup can be tweaked to give you more of what you want. It seems that you've already done that. So, in the end, I suspect that you'll only get what you want by trading up to a bass more suited to orchestral work-- the prototypical carved round-back canon.

I've always been partial to those basses. I think it's because I "grew up" in the classical world so, even now as a jazz player, those are the basses I gravitate toward. My current bass was specifically built with that sound in mind with a setup tweaked toward jazz pizz. Put a bow to it and it shakes walls and rattles windows. That's my $0.02, anyway.

Edit-- I agree with Adrian-- the question is whether the darker sound you might get by changing the TP (a change of setup) on your bass will be powerful enough to cut it in an orchestra section. You could sure try it and see (hear).

Phil Rowan · #4 12-24-2009, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drurb

Edit-- I agree with Adrian-- the question is whether the darker sound you might get by changing the TP (a change of setup) on your bass will be powerful enough to cut it in an orchestra section. You could sure try it and see (hear).

I've been thinking of doing this to make my brighter hybrid bass a little darker (hopefully w/ out sacrificing volume/presence).

longfinger · #5 12-24-2009, 12:11 PM

How about trying the easy things first?

different types of rosin?
borrowing other bows?
using other kinds of strings, with an ear only for arco?

I'm amazed at how rosin type can changed the sound of arco playing so much. And it's the least expensive thing to experiment with.

hdiddy · #6 12-24-2009, 12:20 PM

Cheap way to do it: if you don't have one already, go get a steel rod for your endpin, or go to a bigger gauge rod & corresponding end pin plug. If you want to try something fast and temporary, just clamp a quick grip onto your bridge. Same goes fro the scroll.

Square Bear · #7 12-24-2009, 01:17 PM

i think what you are noticing is that when you play with a mute, the sound is very fundamental-heavy. almost all overtones are deadened, so the sound is indeed more focused. likewise, there is way less competition of frequencies, which adds to this effect. that is just normal, it has nothing to do with the mass of your tailpiece. that said, you may be able to get more out of your bass, but only a trip to a good luthier will tell you that. it may require some trial and error and cost a little bit. maybe a different tailpiece would make a difference, who knows. try it and let us know your results.

barbarbass · #8 12-24-2009, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Goodbar

My focus in the last year or so has switched to classical -- playing in the local community orchestras and such.

Always glad to hear of musicians (particularly bassists) participating in community orchestras. It's a great outlet for the "not quite pro" people, and you're also offering something for free (usually) to the community.

drurb · #9 12-24-2009, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drurb

I wouldn't necessarily conclude that your bass performs better with more mass... What the mute is doing is cutting many of the upper partials so that the sound that results is somewhat darker and deeper....the question is whether the darker sound you might get by changing the TP (a change of setup) on your bass will be powerful enough to cut it in an orchestra section. You could sure try it and see (hear).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Square Bear

i think what you are noticing is that when you play with a mute, the sound is very fundamental-heavy. almost all overtones are deadened, so the sound is indeed more focused... that said, you may be able to get more out of your bass, but only a trip to a good luthier will tell you that.

Is there an echo in here?

Andrew McGregor · #10 12-25-2009, 06:46 AM

Also, remember that you don't want a sound like what you hear from the audience at an orchestra concert... you want a sound like you hear sitting in the section, which is way, way brighter, harder and more penetrating that you would believe if you haven't done it. If your sound is too fundamental-heavy, you can't hear yourself play, which means you can't play in tune.

PsychoScout · #11 12-25-2009, 06:52 AM

rather strange.... I would think more mass => darker, mute sound

that's what's basically wrong with my chinese bass... way more mass than needed => dark, mute sound....

(but I haven't played in an orchestra... I guess the chinese would be nowhere to be heard...)

Mike Goodbar · #12 12-26-2009, 02:20 PM

Thanks to all for the information and suggestions.

Think I'll try putting on some genu-wine orchestra strings, then try a heavier tailpiece if that seems promising.

Ken McKay · #13 12-27-2009, 07:01 AM

Mike,

I think most anything you do to get the sound you are after except changing strings will also mute the volume. Helicore orchestra strings sound good on Christophers IMO.

Eric Hochberg · #14 12-27-2009, 11:17 AM

You might try a wood endpin. It darkens up the sound of my bass.

SLivinghouse · #15 12-31-2009, 02:04 AM

You might try what I did to temporarily add more mass to the tailpiece by clipping your clip on tuner, or other small plastic clamp(s) onto the tailpiece. The clamp will add more mass and you can see if you like it. It allows you to non -evasively add mass which you can obviously easily remove. Also, if you try different tailpieces, the sound difference may come from loosening and re-tensioning the strings instead of the tailpiece change. This way the only variable is the mass added and you can experiment with different amounts.

Turnaround · #16 01-05-2010, 08:35 PM

Interesting thread.

Here's something I might throw into the argument, coming from the other side of the force (electric bass).

I've been at this for forty-some-odd years. And one thing I learned, but often forget and have to re-learn, is that what sounds good on its own does not necessarily sound good in enemble playing (in the mix). Often what sounds thin and top heavy is just what is needed in the group experience. But as the player we are not in the best (physical) position to judge this. Given that the lower frequencies often do not "bloom" until you are a significant distance from the source, you could even argue that we may be in the worst position to judge our sound.

So what can we say about more mass? Better sound? To whom? More weight to slog - well, yes. But as players we're probably the only ones that care about the mass part. And we could be wrong about the important considerations.

basswraith · #17 01-07-2010, 07:19 PM

There is no correct answer to that question. Every bass is different and reacts differently to changes in weight and mass applied to specific areas.
If a doctor treated every person the same then we would all be dead. I think basses are a case by case...case. If you load a bass up with a heavy bridge, thick feet, stupid brass adjusters

, and a thick crown, as well as a heavy tail piece, and sound post in the wrong place, what you will have is a bass with very little over tones. It will feel like you have wet laundry inside the box and the voice of the instrument will be suppressed. The tone will be thick and woolly. Some people love it but they have to work twice as hard get the bass to speak. The bass is the most dynamically challenged instrument of the Symphony orchestra. Even the triangle is louder than a bass. Why would one want to make it even quieter than it is?

I have undone the "more mass" set up to a number of basses that have come through my shop. The result is an instrument that vibrates freely and is allowed to be what it is and not what it isn't. The comments from the musician who play it are usually as follows.." Wow, I wish I had done that before my recital!" and " Cool , I can actually hear the pitch."

On the other hand, basses often come in with a thin sound. Where I can feel the air in the box is not moving enough. Ill check the sound post to see if its too tight and too close to the bridge foot. Ill consider the strings and density of the tail piece and even the end-pin. Ill make the appropriate changes to get some more sound out of the bass. Some times that means adding mass.
The point is, like most things people consider "Zen" its knowing when to stop, where the perfect balance is between adding mass and removing mass, and having the bass vibrate at its highest capacity. The bass will tell you if its fighting to be free and if it doesn't like some thing. Its the player and luthier, sometimes they are the same person,
who has to be sensitive enough to know how to be receptive to these things. This takes intuition and years of experience.
Now go have fun.
Michael Hartery
www.BostonBassWorks.com

drurb · #18 01-07-2010, 08:04 PM

Hey basswraith, it doesn't cost any more to use the larger font.

I think some fine answers were given in answer to what the OP actually asked. That is, under the conditions he described (with the mute) he wanted to know if he could conclude that more mass would be better. He wasn't asking whether, in general, more mass is better but the thread seemed to veer in that direction. Your answer to that question seems right on target.

basswraith · #19 01-07-2010, 10:39 PM

I know what you mean. I saw the topic as an opportunity to chat about and address a trend that I and other luthiers have been dealing with in this part of the US, as well as educating musicians about their instruments. All in all there is no one right way to go about set up and there is more than one way of doing things. I will share what works for me and what has made my clients happy.

Ken McKay · #20 01-08-2010, 08:55 AM

Good comments Basswrath. Would you care to get a little specific about what you are taking about in this phrase. I saw the topic as an opportunity to chat about and address a trend that I and other luthiers have been dealing with in this part of the US?
I don't live in that part of the country but maybe could learn from others mistakes.