My bass isn't what I thought it was...

[twodinners]

Hi there,

I've just had to take my bass in for repair to some lower rib damage.

I was invited in to see the back partially removed and to talk over work to be done (as usual, other problems were identified).

The major shock though was the very certain declaration by the repairers that my bass is probably Hungarian and less than twenty years old with some artificial ageing.

Now I know that if you can make a good sound and get around the guy then that should be enough, but I was sold this bass (as my first bass) five years ago by a well known UK dealer as being German from around 1910 for what seemed to be the going rate for what it was described as.

I still have a receipt, complete with description and pictures from the original sale.

It's very hard to believe that the dealer was ignorant as to the probable origin of this bass.

I'm just feeling a little deflated, and a little angry plus a hefty repair bill.

I'm planning to get in touch with the dealer to see whether he has an explanation.

Just needed to sound off.

Hey ho, and did I mention that the damage was caused by a band mate helpfully closing the hatchback door on it.

Kevin

[arnoldschnitzer]

There are a lot of Eastern European fakes being paraded as older basses. Their work on the antique-looking varnish and other "distressing" is really impressive. Many, many "experts" have been faked out by these things. Your dealer may have been one of them. I suppose you could present the evidence and request a refund or price adjustment, but disagreements of this sort often boil down to one man's opinion against another. I myself was involved in a very expensive case like yours a few years back; I was the one who uncovered that the instrument in question was not what it was supposed to be. My reputation and knowledge were assailed by the seller, but the buyer ultimately triumphed (with the assistance of pricey lawyers). Good luck to you.

[twodinners]

arnoldschnitzer,

Thanks for the reply, I'm rather hoping that the dealer will be mostly concerned with maintaining his reputation once presented with the evidence, and do the right thing.

I'll let you know how it pans out.

[bassbuddie]

The same thing happened to me. I was at a VERY WELL KNOW LUTHIER SHOP IN MONTREAL store and was searching for a carved double bass. The one I chose was an old carved checkoslovakia bass. The seller told me a long story about a german collector who sold his collection and bla bla bla. I got to another luthier for a repair, and he assured me that this bass was not as old as it seems. In a fury, I got to the VERY WEEL KNOWN LUTHIER SHOP IN MONTREAL and said a lot a blasphemies as we canadian french people do when we are angry. They offered me to refund my bass.

I went back home and decided to keep it. I buy the bass for the sound, not for the look. I did not pay to much, the price was reasonable for a carved bass. The reason I was angry is a matter of «principe» (sorry i don't know the english word for that.). The luthier had no reason to lie to me, I was choosing this bass for the sound, not for the age. That's why I was angry.

[twodinners]

bassbuddie,

I just feel like a bit of a chump really, all these years I thought I was playing something that had survived two World Wars. I too am actually very fond of the bass and it has become 'my sound', but yes - it's the principle, I think the guy saw me coming.

[bassbuddie]

I understand, you know what. At first, I was disappointed and was not sure if i did the right thing by keeping the bass. But now, I think I made the right choice.

The Luthier is responsible for his own reputation, and sooner or later he will pay for it.
Maybe your bass did not survived World War II, who really knows, but it has survived your wars....

[Eric Hochberg]

I think I would get another opinion or two before you rail on the seller. And your should get an appraisal in writing to back it up if indeed it isn't what you thought you had bought.

[twodinners]

Thanks Eric,

Of course It's not worth pursuing unless I can get the guys (very reputable) working on it to agree to verify their findings. They showed me round it this morning with the back off and pointed out the orbital sander marks and such. They were quite sympathetic but insistent that it certainly wasn't German or one hundred years old. But it is fully carved and does the job for me and the work being done should make it sound as good as it can.

Think positively!

[Ed Fuqua]

Not to pry, but what did you pay for the bass?

If somebody tells me the bass I'm buying is a Panormo and they charge me $80K + and I find it's an 8 year old Hungarian bass I may have legal recourse to get some of that jack back, jack. But if I paid $8-12K for carved bass of no known provenance and a "best estimate" of school and age, well it's kinda no harm no foul.

Check out Don Higdon's Hungarian bass story; the consensus was that whoever made the bass should stop trying to sell them as old "school of" basses and just put their name on them, they'd be able to get the same price since they sounded so good and were built so well.

[MIKMAN]

It's true, in my numerous trips to Central and Eastern Europe i faced many times this attitude, either from known dealers or by unknown sellers. As my experience increased i became competent enough to recognise "ageing" in a particular instrument. People from Hungary are masters in "ageing" an instrument and i admit that in a certain case i've been deceived and i bought a "vintage" violin, which was not at all vintage (albeit a good instrument).
It's hard to believe that an established shop can be easily deceived
by anyone, so as the OP says it's a matter of principle to have things settled. Please keep us informed, i'm particulaply curious about the VERY WELL KNOWN SHOP'S response.
Mike

[twodinners]

Ed,

Well I paid pretty much what you would expect for a generic German bass and I guess what I got is probably not worth that much less really. I'm quickly becoming quite sanguine about the affair, the bass is mine, it got me playing the upright and has paid for itself a few times over. I get compliments about the sound and now I don't have to worry about carting this 'antique' around.

There have been many occasions when I have asked a fine sounding bass player 'What's the bass' and got the reply 'No idea'.

I'll go and read the Hungarian Bass thread and cheer myself up with a glass of wine (Hungarian).

Actually the mender has lent me a Jay Haide, shall I just leave town?

Regards,

Kevin

[AMJBASS]

I have had the same thing happen to me. Purchased an "early 1900's German bass", and found out later it was a newer Hungarian bass. I have also purchased another one in the past advertised as old German, but I knew it was Hungarian before buying it. The point is that for the money both of them were great basses. The first one had a really great sound. Both of them were made very well. I agree with Don Higdons "story". Who ever is making these basses should just advertise them for what they are. I would guess that they could even make more on these basses if people knew they were getting very well made basses copied from older master basses.

[Turnaround]

Originally Posted by arnoldschnitzer

I myself was involved in a very expensive case like yours a few years back; I was the one who uncovered that the instrument in question was not what it was supposed to be. My reputation and knowledge were assailed by the seller.

I know your pain. I spent many years in the restoration of fine antique furniture. I was involved in the controvery over a particular piece that I showed to be not what the well-respected dealer was claiming it to be. He honestly believed the piece to be all original from the very early 1800's. He baought it from someone he trusted, but I identified that at least 30% of the piece was not original and there were indications that it had been fabricated in an attempt to fool the market.

The controversy had a serious impact on my business. The reaction was split 50/50 amongst collectors - many were loyal to their preferred dealer, while others were more interested in the what I brought to the table in evidence. But amongst the antique dealers, the impact was much more serious. You would never ever do anything that might reflect badly on a dealer if you wanted to continue doing business in the trade. I fortunately had supporters on both sides of the equation, but I did pay a serious price for my contribution to the authenticity debate.

Same applies to the musical instrument market. My advice to those in this business is if you have principles, stick to them. And if you don't.....

[Eric Rene Roy]

Originally Posted by Turnaround

...My advice to those in this business is if you have principles, stick to them. And if you don't...

My Brother-In-Law always says, "principles are expensive". Just one of those "isms" that has stuck with me...

Sorry for the derail.

[ctregan]

I would not pin this on a particular luthier swindling the public. More likely, its the work of a person who buys and sells instruments, looking to enhance their product by making it look old. The instruments may have been made in Hungary, but the distressing could have been done by anyone, anywhere.

[Cody Sisk]

Originally Posted by Adrian Juras

I have had the same thing happen to me. Purchased an "early 1900's German bass", and found out later it was a newer Hungarian bass. I have also purchased another one in the past advertised as old German, but I knew it was Hungarian before buying it. The point is that for the money both of them were great basses. The first one had a really great sound. Both of them were made very well. I agree with Don Higdons "story". Who ever is making these basses should just advertise them for what they are. I would guess that they could even make more on these basses if people knew they were getting very well made basses copied from older master basses.

Pöllmann does just that. They will make a copy and market it as a copy. I recently saw a Rossi copy that was just spot-on. They went so far as to duplicate the plugs in the pegbox from a 3-string conversion, fake cracks, etc..

[arnoldschnitzer]

Originally Posted by ctregan

I would not pin this on a particular luthier swindling the public. More likely, its the work of a person who buys and sells instruments, looking to enhance their product by making it look old. The instruments may have been made in Hungary, but the distressing could have been done by anyone, anywhere.

Actually, there are a couple of shops there specializing in fakes. This is a completely premeditated business, not a happenstance. And there are dealers knowingly taking advantage so they can turn big profits. Not to paint everyone with the same brush, but it does happen.

[drurb]

Originally Posted by Eric Rene Roy

My Brother-In-Law always says, "principles are expensive". Just one of those "isms" that has stuck with me...

Sorry for the derail.

Your brother-in-law is quite right but that's a price you gotta keep paying!

[robobass]

Originally Posted by arnoldschnitzer

Actually, there are a couple of shops there specializing in fakes. This is a completely premeditated business, not a happenstance. And there are dealers knowingly taking advantage so they can turn big profits. Not to paint everyone with the same brush, but it does happen.

I was writing just when you posted this. Remember that Italian bass up on Ebay last year that was just too good to be true? Upon viewing the photos, most people here concluded it was indeed a modern Hungarian copy, and it was even being sold from Hungary.

I recently played a huge antiqued modern Hungarian 5-string. No one was claiming it was 18th C. Italian, but the thing was freakin' beautiful all around and looked like it was. Whatever the motives of the builder, it seems clear that there are shops in HU which specialize in not copies, but FAKES! I don't find the practice itself inherently dishonest. If someone (bankers?) wants to own a bass that looks like and an old master and is also a decent instrument, but doesn't want the trouble of owning the real thing, then fine.

Passing these off as authentic is certainly another thing. I don't think that any dealer who knows his stuff can honestly claim to have been fooled. There are always giveaways, like sanding marks, lack of shrinkage cracks, dust, stains, or scars from bowtips, to name a few. Arnold? How long do you think you would need to look at one of these things to be sure? 3 minutes?

So it's buyer beware. Before buying a used car, you take it to YOUR mechanic and have him check it out. Even if it still turns out to be a good deal, that doesn't make it alright to be fooled or lied to.

[Uncletoad]

Misrepresentation and/or differences of opinion in origin, condition, and value are common in the antique trades. The musical instrument portion of that is even more susceptible. I noticed quite a bit of "differences of opinion" when I was hunting for an old bass.

It's very difficult as a buyer to be fully educated on the differences of things and the ascribed values. You pick your people and trust their opinion and hope for the best. It's easier to vet the "experts" than the instruments but it's also easy to be duped by the experts, either wittingly or inadvertently. Its a very small community as well so all the different personalities kind of know each other. That leads to slippery politics when trying to get a straight answer out of anyone.

The best thing I can suggest is find the people you trust and go by what they say. There will always be differences of opinion from those trusted sources and you can either buy into the doubt or trust your instincts.

Either way the more homework you can do to verify what you are looking at the better off you are. I passed on some basses because I couldn't get secondary opinions from my trusted group on them. Perhaps that left me to miss a deal on something but more likely it protected me from spending some larger dollars on the "wrong thing".

Caveat emptor is the beginning and ending of this madness. Verify, verify, verify, and if in doubt, walk away. There is always something else to buy.

To 2dinners: sorry man. That sucks. You think you do everything right on the money and still get duped. It ain't right. Maybe not much can be done maybe something. Good luck.