My new antique: simple workhorse or delicate mystery?

Wardo · #1 01-24-2009, 05:25 PM

My 1947 Kay M-5 is in great shape, except for one thing. When the original owner transported it from Texas to Northern New Mexico in the early 1950's, the neck slid (and tilted slightly) forward in the dove tail joint by 5/16" making for incredibly high action. It has stayed this way ever since and there is no apparent damage to either neck, body, or joint. Perhaps the factory used no glue to hold this together?

The second owner replaced some of the strings in the late 1950's and mixed up the order of them, but tuned it as normal and it's been that way ever since.

Now, as the third owner of this beautiful instrument, I would like to replace the strings and put the neck back where it belongs to lower the action. I'm tempted to simply take the strings off, push the neck back where it belongs, (perhaps with a little glue) and put the new strings on. However, I'm concerned that I may be missing some important point and I certainly don't want to damage the bass. Any suggestions?

If in fact this process is as simple as it appears to be, does anyone have suggestions on how to stabilize the soundpost during this operation? I'd certainly love to avoid fishing around for it later, if at all possible.

One more thing; the bridge is curved up toward the neck and has apparently been so for several decades. Do I need to address this, or is it alright to leave it as is?

Any and all suggestions, comments, and otherwise helpful tips are greatly appreciated.

Phil Rowan · #2 01-24-2009, 05:44 PM

Hey Wardo... Firstly, please fill in your profile so that we know where you are (& so that TB'ers can tell you about a good luthier in your area) .. which brings me to my second point: take your Kay to a qualified luthier to have it looked at and overhauled.

When I got my '38 Kay, it was in pretty rough shape. I had it overhauled and it made a world of a difference. It's the bass that I really learned to play on, and which got me through music school.. and I'm still playing it!

Wardo · #3 01-24-2009, 06:12 PM

Okay, got it. I'm in Reno, NV. I just returned from New Mexico with the new, old bass. I detuned each string by a fifth before commencing the journey and I suspect that the original owner's failure to do this on it's first trip was the cause of the separation. Now that it's been here in my house for a couple of days, I believe it's sufficiently acclimated to tune it up again. Although I'm 2500 feet lower in elevation here, it's about the same humidity as from whence it came.

It's certainly playable, and has indeed been played many times in it's current state, just not for a long, long time.

What does an overhaul entail?

riverbum · #4 01-24-2009, 09:08 PM

i agree with phil. take it to a qualified luthier. after 50 years of neglect and a bad setup, the bass needs to have a top to bottom checkup and setup. there could also be problems with the neck block causing the neck to tilt forward resulting in a high action. it would seem that the action would be low if the neck slid forward and there was no other damage. i can't imagine a neck never being glued from the factory.

good luck with your bass and don't forget to register the bass with www.kaybass.com. roger stowers has done a great job compiling the best website with information on kay basses.

salcott · #5 01-24-2009, 09:22 PM

Get it checked out before you string it up; the fact that it hasn't come apart already is just incredible dumb luck.

Wardo · #6 01-24-2009, 09:44 PM

Here are pics of the Bass and the Neck. See? Doesn't it look like I could just push that thing back in there and go?

riverbum · #7 01-24-2009, 10:01 PM

the bass is beautiful. first thing i would do is get the strings off to avoid any more damage. the dovetail has probably worn from being loose for so many years. the wear has probably affected the fit and most likely will not tilt the neck back and the neck may also be tilted to one side or the other too.

i work on my own basses but i am not a professional. my advise is to go ahead and spend the money now with a good luthier and avoid problems that could be more expensive later.

if you do try to repair your bass, MAKE SURE YOU USE A HIDE GLUE and not carpenter's glue such as titebond or elmers.

Wardo · #8 01-24-2009, 11:20 PM

Ten years ago, while traveling, I left my other bass at a friend's house for a few days to keep it out of the cold. Unbeknownst to me at the time, his roomie had a go at it and I returned to find a strange new dent on the back of the scroll. A few miles down the road, and I unbagged it to find a broken neck. This absolutely devastated me as I thought it was all over.

My teacher recommended I take it to a certain repair shop, (I almost want to use the bastard's name!) and tell them he sent me. I, having much faith in my awesome teacher, simply dropped it off and trusted them to do the right thing. After all, they looked professional enough and repairing violins, violas, cellos and basses is all they do.

I was astounded at the hack-job they did, drilling through my fingerboard, inserting a dowel partially through the heel, and capping it off very crookedly. As if this wasn't enough, they set it up so that the strings were off-set to one side, and then they charged me an arm and a leg! Oh, well I thought, "I'm just happy that my bass isn't completely dead." But it did look like Frankenstein.

A few months later, the heel started to separate, (partially from being weak to begin with, but also) from being pulled sideways by the off-set strings.

I asked a friend of mine who makes guitars if he could help. He said he hadn't the foggiest when it came to upright basses. I pleaded with him to help me out, because he's the only one I knew whom I felt I could trust. He did an incredible job with a pair of screws through the rear of the heel. He capped them nicely and even put a thin slice of stained wood in the crack which is barely noticable, (see attached pic.) He then smoothed out the speedbump of the violin hospital's poor cap job, in the middle of my fingerboard.

Awesome right? Yes, but the bastard's Frankenjob was still to haunt me. A little while later, again while traveling, the bass recieved the slightest of bumps and ka-blooey! The neck broke yet again, this time right at the end of the dowel the repair shop had installed not too long before.

This time my friend, (again after much pleading on my part) sank a 6" lag bolt from the rear of the heel right through the dowel and again did a masterful job, it's now solid as a rock, sounds great and I haven't had a single issue since.

So this just goes to show you, when it comes to professional bass luthiers, I don't know who I can trust with this family heirloom I have now been entrusted with. I've used up about all the favors from my friend the guitar maker, and I'd rather take it to someone who knows uprights anyway.

My apologies for such a long rant. I guess I just needed to get it off my chest. I realise that it wasn't totally the fault of the reapir shop, but it mostly was. My question for y'all is thus: How do I know for sure I'll get a professional set up and repair from a luthier whom I know only by someone else's suggestion? Are there specific things to look for? Look out for? Questions to ask?

Wardo · #9 01-24-2009, 11:29 PM

For those interested, here's a pic of the beauty the aforementioned repairs were done to. She may have no maker's ID, but she sounds wonderful.

BTW, that's my home-made quiver and fiddle caddy pedestal, ('cause I bought a stand without adjustable arms.)

salcott · #10 01-24-2009, 11:39 PM

"Doesn't it look like I could just push that thing back in there and go?"

No way. If you'll do a little TB research on neck repair, you'll find there's a great deal more to this sort of work than "...push that thing back in there..." It's not a DIY job.

A competent "professional" bass luthier would have done none of the things you described. Check out the luthier directory in Gollihur's website. There are several in the San Francisco area, not too far from you.

riverbum · #11 01-25-2009, 12:00 AM

i feel your pain brother. look at what i'm dealing with here. i knew the neck needed repairing and possibly replacing but this is the kind of repair you want to avoid. i still plan to rebuild the original neck ( '39 C-1) even though i will put a new neck on for the time being.

go and visit your local luthier and look at the work that has come through their shop. ask for references too.

Wardo · #12 01-25-2009, 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by salcott

"A competent "professional" bass luthier would have done none of the things you described. Check out the luthier directory in Gollihur's website. There are several in the San Francisco area, not too far from you.

The place that did the hack job on my first bass is in the San Francisco Bay area and is listed in the Gollihur Luthier Directory.

This is probably why the directory states right at the top of the California section, "Those in this listing are not endorsed or recommended by us simply by their appearance here, so choose carefully."

Which puts me back at square one. I guess I could ask around at the Universities, and see if I can find some examples of repair work.

Maybe someone reading this thread can recommend someone in Northern Nevada or Northern California.

Wardo · #13 01-25-2009, 12:34 AM

Wow, Riverbum now that's a hack job! I'll stop feeling sorry for myself now.

Actually, I wasn't to begin with. It's just that my uncle would kill me if I let something like that happen to his old bass. Besides, I feel that I've got a long anticipated golden opportunity to develop a wonderful relationship with a really great bass. I want to make sure that I do the right thing here.

BTW, the neck isn't loose. It appears to have moved once, almost sixty years ago and stayed stuck in that spot. My uncle gigged with it in that condition a bunch in the following years. Again, I really don't think there's any damage. Whew!

Jake deVilliers · #14 01-25-2009, 01:07 AM

If you'll be patient, I'm sure you'll get a recommendation from a fellow DB player which is really the only way to find a good repairman/woman. That bass needs to be treated with respect - please, no screws or bolts!

It sounds as though its ready for a new bridge too.

ctregan · #15 01-25-2009, 04:58 AM

Many times, Luthiers who work on violins and cellos do not like to be bothered with bass repairs. Find luthier who specializes in basses and is familiar with the Kay line.

Eric Hochberg · #16 01-25-2009, 09:11 AM

Call some bassists in the local symphony orchestra for a recommendation.

Treyzer · #17 01-25-2009, 09:52 AM

Aloha,

Jeff Sahs in Sacramento is very good. He does lots of work for the schools in the area as well as individual players, He's someone you should check out. PM me if you want his number.

Trey

Treyzer · #18 01-25-2009, 07:48 PM

Thought I'd bump this thread in case th OP wants a good luthiers number.

Wardo · #19 01-26-2009, 11:25 AM

Wow, there's so much great information on these forums. I've already spent countless hours reading all sorts of fascinating stuff, and undoubtably will continue to do so.

I've decided to take it to a professional bass luthier instead of trying to tackle it myself, (probably dodged a bullet there huh?) Now just to decide which one.

To ctregan, that's a really good idea and I'll search for a luthier with that in mind.

To ehochberg, also a good idea. What an excellent place to start.

To treyzer, thank you for recommending Jeff Sahs in Sacramento. I picked up his number from another thread and will be contacting him soon.

I really hope to find someone either in Nevada or Northern California on the Eastern side of the Sierras to keep the humidity level and elevation relatively the same. It seems after having spent it's whole life in the high desert, it may not be very healthy to have it spend time being repaired in a region with lower elevation and much higher humidity. What do y'all think?

Jake deVilliers · #20 01-26-2009, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wardo

it may not be very healthy to have it spend time being repaired in a region with lower elevation and much higher humidity. What do y'all think?

I wouldn't worry about that Wardo, Sacramento's not exactly humid!

Also, I'm sure Jeff would take that into account - I had the humidity in my workroom at ~30% for a couple of weeks to make Bob Knebel's Montana-based Epi feel at home. Its now back to our regular winter numbers 45 - 55% for my local clientele.