Need a better jazz sound

basterraz · #1 08-08-2006, 08:50 AM

Hello everyone,

I'm a pro jazz player living in London (UK) and I've got a hand carved rumanian bass by a luthier called Barnabash. Its a great all round instrument, but its really built for classical music, and I just can't seem to get a good enough sound out of it for jazz.

In terms of EQ, it sounds like its missing a lot of mid range, on recordings, the bass range is boomy and undefined, it lacks the focus and growl that guys like Paul Chambers had.

Basically, I was wondering if:
1) Anyone else had had similar issues in the past?
2) If so, what their suggestions might be?
3) If any one knows if anything specific setup wise can be done to correct this, or if there is such a thing as a "jazz" setup copmpared to a "classical" one?
4) Anyone's general thoughts and feelings on Juzek instruments.

Someone suggested I get a cheaper instrument, something sturdier and more "run of the mill". Anyone got any thoughts on that?

I know its asking a lot, but thanks for any help you can give!

Cheers,
Bas

Bruce Lindfield · #2 08-09-2006, 04:26 AM

I'm no expert - but I can tell you what I've noticed from being in the audience at many Jazz gigs and Orchestral concerts - that is, that Orchestral DBs are generally bigger and louder, whereas Jazz players seem to select smaller instruments and sacrifice volume - but then amplify ...

Case in point for me was seeing Dave Holland play with a chamber orchestra which had one very big and very loud DB.

Holland's DB looked like a Cello in a side-by-side comparison and the two were clearly very different beasts!! So - the Orchestral DB was louder and bassier than Holland's bass even though the latter was amplified! But in solos, Dave Holland's sound had more midrange and was more defined ....

Cairobill · #3 08-09-2006, 04:35 AM

What strings are you using? Switching to spirocore reds gave my bass a lot more of a growly midrangey tone...but they're slightly more difficult to handle for arco.

There's a lot of stuff in the strings section re: string choice influencing tone.

C

Karl · #4 08-09-2006, 06:10 AM

If your bass is too boomy down low I think you won't be able to change that fact without sacrificing bowability, and even then it will sacrifice overall sound of the bass.

If you can afford it get a second bass for jazz. If you're a pro orchestra-player this will have a lot of advantages.
Does not need to be a superb instrument to sound good for jazz. Many great players play with old flatback-basses, 3/4 size and get a great, colourful tone out of it, not much volume but you won't need a lot if you amplify. And then I'd suggest to check out the strings-section of this forum. The strings effect the jazz-sound and playability as much as classical strings do.

Oh well, and make sure your right-hand technique is in place, thats the real key to a good jazz sound: properly digging into the proper string.

basterraz · #5 08-09-2006, 06:57 AM

Thanks for your replies.

Regarding size of instruments, I've noticed that too, that a lot of the top jazzers seem to play smaller instruments.

As for strings, I'm using Velvet strings, because the main band I'm in is aiming for an older, softer sound, the horn players are using old saxes, the drummer's got hide skins on (we're not one of those old school purist nutcase bands, we're just aiming for something more in the "swing band" tradition), so I went for as close as I could get to gut strings. I used to play Helicores, and even though the Velvets have greatly improved the sound, there's still something lacking.

Karl, I agree with what you say about the instrument not needing to be a superb one, just wondering what you use - carved or hybrid or laminated? And not meaning to be indiscreet, but what price range? It seems in the UK you can't get anything less than about £2000 other than £500 chinese factory built instruments.....

Paul Warburton · #6 08-09-2006, 07:34 AM

Have you, besides trying Thomastik Orchestra strings, tried adjusting your sound post? Also, some basses need a bit of extra string pressure to coax a good jazz sound out, in which case the Thomastik Starks might be worth a try. Be ready for some blisters though!

Also, the word is out that Thomastic is coming out with a new string called the BelCanto. I'm waiting for these to hit the market because, according to the PR, they're supposed to be the answer to our age old quest for a string that has pizzibility as well as bowability.

Bruce Lindfield · #7 08-09-2006, 07:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by basterraz

Thanks for your replies.
And not meaning to be indiscreet, but what price range? It seems in the UK you can't get anything less than about £2000 other than £500 chinese factory built instruments.....

Ha - this is a constantly recurring theme around here!!

The UK just does not have the range of 'lower end' instruments that are freely available to US Jazz players!!

Cairobill · #8 08-09-2006, 08:46 AM

I can second that. I had to shell out to get a bass that sounded like i thought a db should. Most basses on the lower end for sale in the UK sound and feel like kerrapp...

C

basterraz · #9 08-09-2006, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruce Lindfield

Ha - this is a constantly recurring them around here!!

The UK just does not have the range of 'lower end' instruments that are freely available to US Jazz players!!

That's what I thought, its good to know I'm not the only one who thinks that.

Anyone had any luck getting something shipped from the states? How about Europe?

Bruce Lindfield · #10 08-09-2006, 09:02 AM

I think you have several problems there...

DBs are fragile - going to need a lot of packing to protect from "accidents" ....

Postage and Packing is liable to be pretty high and seem even higher as a proportion on a relatively cheap instrument...

I have seen international parcel handlers throwing these things around, seen them going down chutes and being slammed by things like washing machines or other heavy items...

So if your bass is damaged in transit - what do you do? Most likley you will have to send it back at your cost, to get it repaired or replaced....

I just wouldn't take the risk.

If you do take the risk on importing from the US - then you will be charged 17.5% VAT plus customs duty and maybe a handling charge etc. etc.

Add this all on to your high shipping costs and you might as well have bought a better bass in England!!

basterraz · #11 08-09-2006, 09:22 AM

Yeah, that's what I figured....

I might try Europe, its a bit of a trek, but at least I could drive to some places, France, Belgium, Netherlands etc.

Cairobill · #12 08-09-2006, 11:32 AM

I've been here before!

After 2 years of looking I went for one of Paul Bryant's solo basses.

Check out his stuff at www.bryantbasses.co.uk. They cost a bit but for what they are they're fantastically priced.

On the other hand, the Dutch seem to have a really good market in second hand dbs set up for jazz e.g. this one for about 800 quid. Looks a bit beat up but if you set up a bunch of try outs for one visit you might find a good one.

http://www.speurders.nl/muziekinstru...contrabas.html

Also put this in your url and search for 'contrabas'

http://www.marktplaats.nl/index.php?...m%3Foudei%3D30

They seem to have a Kay from the 30s going for 1500 quid. I don't know whether that's a good deal or not?

Also check out Lucas Suringar, a db luthier in Amsterdam. He usually has a good selection.

http://www.wfdb.nl/

You could drive across, try out a load of basses, and bring back a reasonable jazz db for just over a thousand quid. The problem in the UK is that there are so few around...

Good luck,

C

Alex Scott · #13 08-09-2006, 11:47 AM

Maybe it's your left hand not holding the string down. It's always good to look within instead of spending a ton of money, that way no matter what you play on, it will sound good.

basterraz · #14 08-09-2006, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cairobill

I've been here before!

After 2 years of looking I went for one of Paul Bryant's solo basses.

Check out his stuff at www.bryantbasses.co.uk. They cost a bit but for what they are they're fantastically priced.

On the other hand, the Dutch seem to have a really good market in second hand dbs set up for jazz e.g. this one for about 800 quid. Looks a bit beat up but if you set up a bunch of try outs for one visit you might find a good one.

http://www.speurders.nl/muziekinstru...contrabas.html

Also put this in your url and search for 'contrabas'

http://www.marktplaats.nl/index.php?...m%3Foudei%3D30

They seem to have a Kay from the 30s going for 1500 quid. I don't know whether that's a good deal or not?

Also check out Lucas Suringar, a db luthier in Amsterdam. He usually has a good selection.

http://www.wfdb.nl/

You could drive across, try out a load of basses, and bring back a reasonable jazz db for just over a thousand quid. The problem in the UK is that there are so few around...

Good luck,

C

Thanks again for all that advice. Already just a cursory look has thrown up a lot more stuff than here in the UK. Back to google it is...

basterraz · #15 08-09-2006, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex Scott

Maybe it's your left hand not holding the string down. It's always good to look within instead of spending a ton of money, that way no matter what you play on, it will sound good.

Yeah, I have been paying closer attention to my technique, but I've also tried some other basses, including some really cheap ones, and most of them seem to give a more suited sound.

I'm also looking into the setup, in the hope that changing that might resolve the problem, but it seems more and more like I just haven't got the right instrument for me.

jazzy bass man · #16 08-09-2006, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruce Lindfield

I'm no expert - but I can tell you what I've noticed from being in the audience at many Jazz gigs and Orchestral concerts - that is, that Orchestral DBs are generally bigger and louder, whereas Jazz players seem to select smaller instruments and sacrifice volume - but then amplify ...

Case in point for me was seeing Dave Holland play with a chamber orchestra which had one very big and very loud DB.

Holland's DB looked like a Cello in a side-by-side comparison and the two were clearly very different beasts!! So - the Orchestral DB was louder and bassier than Holland's bass even though the latter was amplified! But in solos, Dave Holland's sound had more midrange and was more defined ....

This doesn't make any sense to me. Guys like Paul Chambers played on large basses with gut strings because they didn't amplify at all. I agree that PC has one of the best sounds ever but it not because the bass was smaller. I personally find that if you raise your string height and really pull on the string (playing in ideally an unamplified situation) you can get much closer to an Old School Jazz sound.

Bruce Lindfield · #17 08-10-2006, 03:19 AM

Well I'm just telling you my experience of going to Jazz gigs every week for the past 10 years or so and as many orchestral concerts as I can....?

Of course PC was a very special bassist and I always amazed at how those guys got such a great sound - before amplification...?

Jake · #18 08-10-2006, 03:45 AM

I know that a lot of jazz bassists sound great on not so great shop basses, like Ron Carter for example, but there is also a history of some great basses in jazz. Milt Hinton played a Matteo Goffriller (very old priceless Italian bass), Ray Brown had an old Italian bass at one point, Scott LaFaro had a nice old Yankee bass (maybe a Prescott), Charlie Haden has an old Italian bass and a nice big French bass, and others too. I hope with some different strings and a little moving of the sound post you can be happy with your hand carved bass.

Jake · #19 08-10-2006, 04:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jake

I know that a lot of jazz bassists sound great on not so great shop basses, like Ron Carter for example, but there is also a history of some great basses in jazz. Milt Hinton played a Matteo Goffriller (very old priceless Italian bass), Ray Brown had an old Italian bass at one point, Scott LaFaro had a nice old Yankee bass (maybe a Prescott), Charlie Haden has an old Italian bass and a nice big French bass, and others too. I hope with some different strings and a little moving of the sound post you can be happy with your hand carved bass.

I hope Ken Smith, Paul Warburton, and some other knowledgable folks add to my list of Jazz bassists with nice axes.

Bruce Lindfield · #20 08-10-2006, 05:07 AM

You can have a nice bass that's small - as evidenced by Dave Holland.

I was at Jazz Summerschool last week and the bass tutors (all great players) had all got nice DBs and I got to try several of them and they were actually smaller than my own bass, which some people consider small!!

But they certainly made them sound big!

The trouble is that you don't get a sense of scale from photos or video and it's only the unusual situation, I described where Dave Holland was playing with a chamber orchestra, that you can make direct comparisons.

So -at the Proms concerts in the Albert Hall, I have been able to get within a few feet of the basses in some of the best Orchestras in the world - and I am always surprised at how huge they are!!

Whereas all the basses of Jazz pros I have met talked to and even played with, have been significantly smaller - except maybe one or two, who are also known as classical players.

But back to the sense of scale - one of the bass tutors at Jazz Summerschool had a very nice-looking bass - which from a distance looked very large - until you take into consideration the fact that it was being played by a petite woman who was only just over 5' tall!