Need more volume! Suggestions what to tell luthier?

[gnergaard]

I have to admit that i'm a bit frustrated right now. I'm not a complete newbie but I sure feel like a hack. My bass is scheduled to go in for a fingerboard dressing and general tune up on Monday.
Background:
Yesterday I was rehearsing with a group that should be any amp-hater's dream. All acoustic ensemble with a very pro drummer on brushes and:
acousitic guitar/vox
lead fiddle player/vox
string quartet (violin x2, viola. cello)
Me on upright.
not an amp or mic in sight.
I couldn't hear myself pizz at all. It's as if the tone was very wide but without a fundamental. Really hard to tune myself. I found myself bending forward over the strings to try to hear myself. Arco wasn't bad- except for my lack of technique. The strings I have were actually behaving nicely and the instrument 'opened up' quite a bit. At least none of the pros in the string quartet raised any objections to my sawing.
Bass is an old American Standard with Spiro Mittels. I know it's plywood but it should be loud, right? It's not the room, either. very tight and controlled rehearsal space with a good amount of padding and little to no reverb. I recently switched to mittels from spiro weichs and I just don't feel that I'm getting the benefit of more volume and depth in my sound- at least pizz.
I'm liking my sound well enough playing at home, and on the numerous gigs I've been doing using a small amp with jazz quintet and a loud drummer I've been reasonably happy.
Any advice for what to tell my luthier to try?

[bonaventura]

I'm not a luthier but I've experimented with getting more volume out of my basses and have had some success. My bass is a Gruenert Jazzbass now 4 years old. It came with a "heavy" ebony tailpiece, standard tailpiece cable, a fairly "heavy" wooden endpin socket, a steel endpin, and Spiro Weichs.

Just a comment: What you hear un-amped is not how the others hear you, depending on where they are. At a gig I played recently, another bassist played without amp and during a break he asked if I, in front of the stage, could hear him. He couldn't hear himself very well. I could hear him loud and clear. His pianist could not. So you may be sounding good to the others because your sound is projecting in that room in a particular way, while you do not hear it in the same way as at home.

But getting more overall real volume out of a bass -- not just how it is heard -- is all about getting the instrument to vibrate more freely, openly, responsively.

Areas to explore:
- strings: some strings, Animas, for example, give a huge volume. Pirastro Jazzers are also loud (they scratch horribly under the bow). Pizzicato Bass has good volume. Depending on how you play pizz, how you pluck or pull and where, etc., you might explore string tension, e.g., how is the volume with a bowable gut like Oliv. It could be that, given how you play, you could get more volume out of Weichs than you are getting out of the Mittels.
- string height: anyone with knowledge of the bass will tell you string height is a real factor here and it has a direct correlation to your volume. The wider the string vibrations laterally when you play, the louder the sound. Ray Brown (I heard second-hand - he didn't tell me himself ) played at like 15 mm on the E string. If you have an adjuster, it's easy to raise the string height (which also can make it harder to finger the notes, esp in the upper positions). If you don't have an adjuster, there are other ways to raise the bridge.
- bridge feet: you might look at the contact on the top. if it is an exact fit, there is a maximum transfer. if the contact is not exact, it will not be the best transfer of vibrations from strings to instrument.
- tailpiece: the lighter the tailpiece, the louder your volume. I switched from a 12 oz ebony to a 4 oz pearwood on one of my basses and from a 12 oz ebony to a 6 oz walnut on the other, and in both cases the volume improved dramatically.
- remove stuff hanging on tailpiece: anything attached to the tailpiece or strings, e.g., bow quiver, pickup output plug, etc., adds weight to the setup and creates a drag on the tailpiece vibrations. Bow quiver can be conveniently attached to music stand. Realist plug can really only go on the tailpiece...
- tailpiece wire & its length and placement: I switched from a standard wire cable to a synthetic cord (just as strong) on both basses. Also, I lengthened the distrance from saddle to the bottom of the tailpiece on both, and also narrowed the distance between the two places where the cord crosses the saddle to about 5/8". The additional length and narrower crossing distance, plus the greater flexibility of the cord allow for better vibration of the tailpiece.
- endpin and socket: on one bass, I switched from the wooden socket with steel endpin to a carbon endpin with a light rubber-like socket. Both the pin and socket are much lighter, and that lightens the load a bit in terms of transport. They say the lightness of the pin and socket allows for better vibration, but imho I cannot really say. I don't notice the carbon pin or socket increases the volume as much as the lighter tailpiece, string height, strings, etc.
- remove the pickup: if you're playing acoustically, the pickup might be excess baggage. I've been using a Realist pickup on each bass for years, and while I must say it's a great pickup, it does actually interfere slightly with the vibration transfer from the bridge to the instrument. Even if it were thinner, it is not uniformly flat or even. When I removed it after fitting a new bridge on one bass, I noticed more volume. I thought it might have been just that I fitted the new bridge so well but then I took the Realist off the other bass, too. Both were louder. Maybe I'll just go pur natur or use a mik from now on...
- oh yeah, i forgot the soundpost. it has to fit right and its position can vary the sound and volume.

I hope that's helpful. Good luck, and I'd be interested to read about your results here after you visit your luthier.

Bill

[gnergaard]

I'll defintely ask about the tailpeice. It's probably the original Ebony that came with the bass and is definitely on the heavy side.
The feet look OK to me and the pickup is a fishman Full Circle built into the adjuster so there's no interference there. But the jack for the pick up is the kind that clips on to the afterlength of the D and A strings.
As for 15mm string height- good lord. I'm not an animal- I'm 5'9 with shoes on and my hands ain't that big. And I'm just not that tolerant of pain!.
The bow holder I have is just essential for me. I switch too often to live without it within hand's reach and most of my gigs are done without a music stand. perhaps I'll take a look at how it's attached, though.
Anyway, I'm thinking about other strings (seems most of us on talkbass are) but I want to see what I can do with Mittels first or maybe back to Spiros if it turns out that my bass just prefers lower tension.

[ctxbass]

Originally Posted by gnergaard

I have to admit that i'm a bit frustrated right now...... I sure feel like a hack.

I think we all feel that way from time to time.

As for 15mm string height- good lord.

How low are your strings?

A soundpost in the wrong place it can kill the sound.

If possible, try playing another bass and see if it is louder.

If you are accustomed to playing unamplified only by yourself and using even a small amp at gigs, your technique may not facilitate getting a loud sound acoustically.
Even with a sub-par set up, that bass and those strings should yield a big enough sound to cope with the situation you described.

[Peck_Time]

I like to play un-amped too, and the best tip I got was from a talkbass thread where someone (I think it was Damon Smith) talked about playing with 'focus', rather than loudness.

It's possible to be stupidly loud and still unable to hear the notes.

[AMJBASS]

I would definitely consider looking into some different strings. It is very expensive to get into, but I think there is a trick you could use to see if your bass opens up in volume. Some instruments respond better to less tension on the top, so you may want to go with a lighter gauge string. You can see if tuning your strings down a half step increases the volume/responsiveness of your bass. If it works, you know that a lighter string might be the trick. If that doesn't have an effect, you could try a few different sets. The Velvet Anima strings when broken in sound huge and project very well. They are expensive though. Another set of strings you could check out if you want to stay a little closer to Spirocore in terms of response/feel are the Thomastik Dominants. They are a very "big" sounding string with a clear attack. They seem to match up well to Spiros in terms of feel, maybe having a bit more give. Another thing is increasing string height. It takes away a bit from playability, but if you work on it the increase in volume and sound quality might be worth it for you. Good luck!

[el_mariachi]

Greg, let me know what happens if you decide to go with different strings and have positive results. I'm also playing a ply bass with Mittels and am looking at possibly going with a different type of string for better volume. As others have suggested, i'm going to try tuning a half-step down to see if I hear an improvement. I looked up the gauge size of the Animas, and they seem much bigger than Spirocore Mittels. Would I have to have my bridge and nut re-filed to fit the Animas, or have people here had success with directly switching?

[gnergaard]

[quote=ctxbass;5285910]I think we all feel that way from time to time.


How low are your strings?

Something like 6mm and 9mm. Originally they were higher but I found that I got more volume (and growl) when I lowered them a bit.

[gnergaard]

It's possible to be stupidly loud and still unable to hear the notes.[/quote]

That's exactly what it feels/sounds like to me. Especially pizz.

[gnergaard]

Originally Posted by Adrian Juras

I would definitely consider looking into some different strings. It is very expensive to get into, but I think there is a trick you could use to see if your bass opens up in volume. Some instruments respond better to less tension on the top, so you may want to go with a lighter gauge string. You can see if tuning your strings down a half step increases the volume/responsiveness of your bass. If it works, you know that a lighter string might be the trick. If that doesn't have an effect, you could try a few different sets. The Velvet Anima strings when broken in sound huge and project very well. They are expensive though. Another set of strings you could check out if you want to stay a little closer to Spirocore in terms of response/feel are the Thomastik Dominants. They are a very "big" sounding string with a clear attack. They seem to match up well to Spiros in terms of feel, maybe having a bit more give. Another thing is increasing string height. It takes away a bit from playability, but if you work on it the increase in volume and sound quality might be worth it for you. Good luck!

I've always been interested in the dominants but I read somewhere on this site that they are not recommended for string lengths of more than 42". Mine is something like 43.5"
What about Pirastro pemanents?

[gnergaard]

Originally Posted by Adrian Juras

I would definitely consider looking into some different strings. It is very expensive to get into, but I think there is a trick you could use to see if your bass opens up in volume. Some instruments respond better to less tension on the top, so you may want to go with a lighter gauge string. You can see if tuning your strings down a half step increases the volume/responsiveness of your bass. If it works, you know that a lighter string might be the trick. If that doesn't have an effect, you could try a few different sets. The Velvet Anima strings when broken in sound huge and project very well. They are expensive though. Another set of strings you could check out if you want to stay a little closer to Spirocore in terms of response/feel are the Thomastik Dominants. They are a very "big" sounding string with a clear attack. They seem to match up well to Spiros in terms of feel, maybe having a bit more give. Another thing is increasing string height. It takes away a bit from playability, but if you work on it the increase in volume and sound quality might be worth it for you. Good luck!

Thanks for the tip! I did try that tonight. I tuned down a little more than a 1/2 step. Not much difference at all.
More specifically the E string was actually quieter, the D and the A might have gained a little volume and the g was about the same. I've always felt that Spiros were a little unbalanced- the E strings on all of the sets feel much too loose compared to the other strings. Perhaps I'll experiment with a mixed set of Weichs and Mittel E.
Or maybe even a Stark E? I have to say that the Mittel E doesn't feel very tight on my bass at all. Perhaps I could deal with a Stark E. I was always scared before. How are the starks with a bow, though?

[AMJBASS]

The Spirocore sets are a little unbalanced. The Stark E would definitely increase the power on your E string. It is a difficult(not impossible) string to bow though. There is a lot of mass to get "moving" on that string, but it gets a lot easier as it breaks in. I had them for a short while, but I always felt the Stark gauge put too much pressure on the top. I have played Permanents once, and while the E and A are nice thick sounding strings, the D and G really don't sound great as a Pizz string IMO. They are a bit better than regular Flexocore for Jazz, but not enough to make me want to use them regularly(unless I was bowing a LOT). The Obligatos really project nicely. They are softer than Spirocores in feel, but have a nice thick tone. However their life span isn't as long, and they roll a bit under the fingers. I enjoyed the sound of them a lot when I had them on my old 7/8ths Czech bass.

[Silversorcerer]

And then it could also be the room to a larger degree than you think. A room with a great deal of padding soaks up the bass and gives little reflection. Rooms without much padding tend to reflect and reinforce the loudness.

And where you are in the room makes a difference as well. I have found that 4 to 5 feet away from a pretty hard (like plaster) wall surface is good and actually amplifies the bass pretty well.

[Ben Rolston]

Make sure that your left hand is completely holding the strings down so they can vibrate fully. I'm coming to realize (through my teacher's help) that this is much more important than string height.

Peace

[Sam Sherry]

I played for years before I really started to pull sound out of the instrument. (Mr. FewKway 'round these parts was a real inspiration for me.) What I read here and see in others suggests that my story is not unique.

While I'm not discounting the possibility that your gear could be tweaked to obtain better results -- maybe a fingerboard dressing would let you raise the string height and still get the sound you like -- I would be remiss not to politely and respectfully join with those who note that it's possible that the operator is at least as much a factor.

[gnergaard]

Well,...yeah. Of course. I'm sure that great technique can make anything work. My technique is neither horrible or fantastic- I prefer: developing. I did think that I was strong enough though. And I'm still suspicious of the fingerboard because there's a region between 7th and 10th position where all the notes sound cloudy no matter how hard my left hand is pressing down.
I'm looking at set up and strings not as the only solution but as 'taking all the help I can get'.
I am going for that fingerboard re-dressing tonight, but beyond that and maybe adjusting the soundpost, I'm just hoping that practice makes perfect.
Thanks for all of the advice, everybody!

[Alex Scott]

maybe the heavier strings choke your bass, and the weichs were better.

[gnergaard]

Well,...yeah. Of course. I'm sure that great technique can make anything work. My technique is neither horrible or fantastic- I prefer: developing. I did think that I was strong enough though. And I'm still suspicious of the fingerboard because there's a region between 7th and 10th position where all the notes sound cloudy no matter how hard my left hand is pressing down.
I'm looking at set up and strings not as the only solution but as 'taking all the help I can get'.
I am going for that fingerboard re-dressing tonight, but beyond that and maybe adjusting the soundpost, I'm just hoping that practice makes perfect.
Thanks for all of the advice, everybody!

[Marcus Johnson]

All other things being equal, the real truth is that it's in the hands, as Sam said. You can stack the deck in your favor as much as possible with strings, setup, and so on, but the real secret is on the ends of your arms. I'm louder than I used to be, maybe I'll get louder in the future, I dunno.

Fuqua says it best. Don't play harder, play smarter. It's almost impossible to describe it on a web forum. But it will click, and you'll know when it does.

That probably didn't help at all. But I do know this; as the years have passed, I've gotten a big sound out of some bad basses that would have killed me in my early years. It's just a long learning curve.

PS As Alex says, the Weichs can be surprisingly loud on some basses (mine is one of them). You wouldn't think those skinny little wires could make that much sound, but they do.