New C-Extension

[GriffithLea]

OK, I've just returned home from Albuquerque, where I had a C-Extension fitted to my Solano Italian Gamba (see New Rumano Solano Bass ) .

I've attached a pic. The work was done at Robertson's by David Briggs. Robertson's came highly recommended, by which I mean I could not get a single person to say anything negative about them, and there were plenty of positive comments.

Before David did the extension, he addressed some issues with the curvature of the fingerboard. He said that the fingerboard needed to be correct before fitting the extension, which made sense to me. Once the fingerboard was corrected, he did some related work on the bridge. The result is a much easier instrument to play. Thumb position is no longer painful!

The C-Extension is the fingered type, with a lever stop at each semitone between C and E, and of course one for E itself. The levers are pernambuco instead of the usual ebony. I could also have chosen what David called snakewood. The pernambuco seemed to look the best, given the reddish color that the bass' finish has.

Since Thomastik is not yet offering long Bel Canto E's to the general public, David fitted a Helicore long E. I don't like it much - it seems scratchy and twangy to me - but maybe it will smooth out in a week or two. I forgot to ask for my standard Bel Canto E back (for the Talkbass string drawer); oh, well.

I plan to get a set of Oliv's and/or Eudoxa's (ka-ching). That's what I used in college, before my 17-year hiatus. I'm still not sure how I afforded those as a student.

Once the extension was done, he took a look at the soundpost as I'd asked. Not long after I took delivery of the bass from Rumano, the soundpost fell when I loosened the strings so that I could raise the bridge to prevent a rattle on the G or D. I got it back in, but I couldn't help thinking that the post was too long (I know - it sounds weird given that the post fell). David confirmed this. He trimmed the post to the correct length, and fitted it in the correct place.

Finally, he refitted the endpin. I had asked him, if he had time, to do this. I wasn't satisfied with the fit of the endpin - it came out of the block at a funny angle, and didn't fit all the way in. Now it comes out straight, with perhaps just a teeny bit of angle to the rear (a la eggpin) instead of angling the other way. Much better.

Result - this bass was a cannon before; now it's even more so (but don't get me wrong - it can also play very softly). The wolf at F# or G on the D is now barely discernible. I guess I can leave the pretty Solano tailpiece for now - Mom will be happy.

I got to chat for a few minutes with Don Robertson. He and David said the next thing that might ought to be done to the bass is to "scoop out" some material on the back of the neck where it meets the pegbox and also the body. Most basses have a pretty small radius at those places - on mine the radius is kind of big. The other thing that David said is that the bass needs a bridge with a somewhat wider stance, given the position of the f-holes and bass bar.

I had a chance while I was there to look at their large stock of basses (my stand partner in one orchestra is in the market for a new bass). There were certainly plenty to choose from. Aaron Robertson was able to show me several in my friend's price range.

Hats off to Robertson's, and David Briggs especially.

[KSB - Ken Smith]

I have seen a few of their extensions and they are beautiful. I am lucky however that near me (under 200 miles) both Arnold Schnitzer and Jeff Bollbach makes one very similar looking but not exact. While the are all each different, they all function well. On one Bass, we had to do a new Fingerboard as it would have been done eventually anyway and doing it along with the Ext. makes more sense.

Enjoy that Ext. as I know them fairly well. Also, make the lever tension light so that with the edge of your left hand forefinger/thumb ridge, you can hit them all open in one shot when needed. This can come in handy. If they are too tight, it might slow you down when trying to set them quickly during a piece.

Once again, congrat's on the beautiful extension and Bass.

[GriffithLea]

Ken, thanks for the kind words and tips.

I thought of a question. Having never owned a bass with an extension before, I'm not certain as to how I should tune it. David suggested stopping the E lever and tuning as you normally would with the 3rd/4th order harmonics. However, this seems not to work well when you need to make anything more than a small pitch change on the long E string.

It occurred to me that the 5th order harmonic on the long E's open C will be the same as the 3rd order harmonic on the A, so you could just turn all the levers off and tune as you would with a "regular" bass.

What do those of you with extensions do?

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by GriffithLea

Ken, thanks for the kind words and tips.

I thought of a question. Having never owned a bass with an extension before, I'm not certain as to how I should tune it. David suggested stopping the E lever and tuning as you normally would with the 3rd/4th order harmonics. However, this seems not to work well when you need to make anything more than a small pitch change on the long E string.

It occurred to me that the 5th order harmonic on the long E's open C will be the same as the 3rd order harmonic on the A, so you could just turn all the levers off and tune as you would with a "regular" bass.

What do those of you with extensions do?

First off, you have to 'hope' that the Extension itself and all its stops are in tune.

I used to tune wither the E/harmonic or the C/harmonic. Then one day I am back stage at the Kimmel Center (Philly Orch) with Duane Rosengard doing a photo session of some of my Basses and he goes to tune the low string with the Ext open by playing a 'G' harmonic (low G on the E) on the E-string. Now, when I am tuning the Ext strings I use the G, C and E harmonic checking to see if it's in tune. Also, I stop the 'D' as well and check that note as well. Depending on what stops I have it set to is usually how I tune. Basically, I check it all.

[GriffithLea]

Originally Posted by KSB - Ken Smith

First off, you have to 'hope' that the Extension itself and all its stops are in tune.

I used to tune wither the E/harmonic or the C/harmonic. Then one day I am back stage at the Kimmel Center (Philly Orch) with Duane Rosengard doing a photo session of some of my Basses and he goes to tune the low string with the Ext open by playing a 'G' harmonic (low G on the E) on the E-string. Now, when I am tuning the Ext strings I use the G, C and E harmonic checking to see if it's in tune. Also, I stop the 'D' as well and check that note as well. Depending on what stops I have it set to is usually how I tune. Basically, I check it all.

OK, good tips all.

I should note that David was careful to explain to me that the GDA nut-to-bridge length now needs to be maintained at 41.25" to insure proper intonation of the extension levers, and that that number is stamped on the extension itself for reference (a nice touch). He also showed me the mark he made on the C nut (at the top of the extension) that shows its original position, in case it ever gets out of whack for any reason.

I think, unless I find a compelling reason not to, I will tune the C's 5-order harmonic to the A's 3rd-order harmonic. This seems to produce good results for me. I can tune it this way, then stop the D and it compares favorably to the open D string. Also, I can stop the E and then check its tune against the A in the normal way with harmonics, and it matches.

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by GriffithLea

OK, good tips all.

I should note that David was careful to explain to me that the GDA nut-to-bridge length now needs to be maintained at 41.25" to insure proper intonation of the extension levers, and that that number is stamped on the extension itself for reference (a nice touch). He also showed me the mark he made on the C nut (at the top of the extension) that shows its original position, in case it ever gets out of whack for any reason.

I think, unless I find a compelling reason not to, I will tune the C's 5-order harmonic to the A's 3rd-order harmonic. This seems to produce good results for me. I can tune it this way, then stop the D and it compares favorably to the open D string. Also, I can stop the E and then check its tune against the A in the normal way with harmonics, and it matches.

Once you know that all is in tune extension-wise and String length-wise, the quickest and easiest way to tune is with the Cx open, playing a G-harmonic in 1st position on the E/C string and compare/tune it to the open G string.

I have a habit of checking it several ways when tuning-up in the orchestra. I am usually the last one to finish. Maybe I just like showing off my thunder..lol

[JoeyNaeger]

Originally Posted by GriffithLea

I think, unless I find a compelling reason not to, I will tune the C's 5-order harmonic to the A's 3rd-order harmonic. This seems to produce good results for me. I can tune it this way, then stop the D and it compares favorably to the open D string. Also, I can stop the E and then check its tune against the A in the normal way with harmonics, and it matches.

This isn't an accurate way to tune. The reason why it checks with everything else is because it is the way Robertson's tunes their extensions. The problem is that while all the stops may seem in tune, the C is actually ending up 14 cents sharp. I just got a Robertson's extension not to long ago as well, and I'm having the same problem. When I have time, I plan on adjusting the nut, and tuning the stops with a tuner so they're truly accurate. Tuning the harmonic G in first position with the G-string is going to make the low C much closer, but will probably make the stops a little off.

[GriffithLea]

Originally Posted by JoeyNaeger

This isn't an accurate way to tune. The reason why it checks with everything else is because it is the way Robertson's tunes their extensions. The problem is that while all the stops may seem in tune, the C is actually ending up 14 cents sharp. I just got a Robertson's extension not to long ago as well, and I'm having the same problem. When I have time, I plan on adjusting the nut, and tuning the stops with a tuner so they're truly accurate. Tuning the harmonic G in first position with the G-string is going to make the low C much closer, but will probably make the stops a little off.

Hey, good to hear from you, Joey. Glad to hear that your bass got "extended", too.

Thanks for pointing this out. Note that I was probably speaking in looser terms than I ought to have. When I said that the pitches matched, I didn't mean to give the impression that I'd gotten out the scope and seen that I was landing on exact 100-cent multiples at every single stop. I just meant that the pitches were pretty close, especially while playing unaccompanied (which is all I've done since getting back), when the ear tends to just intonation. Tonight will be a different story (I have a rehearsal)!

I was already (vaguely, perhaps) aware that the usual method of tuning a standard EADG bass gave slightly incorrect results, since the 3rd-order harmonic gives you an octave plus a just perfect 5th above the fundamental. You gain (or lose, depending on your perspective) a couple of cents this way as compared to equal temperament, I believe.

However, what I hadn't considered, or had forgotten, is that just major 3rd's deviate quite a bit more from equal temperament than do perfect 5th's. As you say, 14 cents.

So, you and Ken have the better idea, then: to compare against the G string.

See, this is why I asked.

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Hey, the day we can all play the Bass as well 'not in tune' as the C-extensions are set, will be a day to celebrate!

[GriffithLea]

OK, I've been having good results tuning the G harmonic on the C to the open G. I think I will stick with that.

On the nasty-sounding Helicore Orchestral long E that Robertson's put on to replace my standard-length Bel Canto E - I remembered that I had an unopened specimen of that exact same Helicore string in my personal string drawer, from about a year ago (there was some confusion in ordering a set of strings). I just put it on this morning, and it there is no doubt - it sounds a lot better.

Go figure - the two strings are supposedly identical. Blue silk (w/gold spirals) on the ball end, and green silk on the tuner end, but they sound radically different.

I did use the felt thingy on the ball end when putting on the new string, where Robertson's did not, but I can imagine that making such a big difference.

It's almost like the old string is a Helicore Hybrid in disguise.

Note - this is not meant to blame Roberton's in any way. They didn't manufacture the string.

[CPike]

I tune my B extension an unusual way. Since I have a slight wolf on my E string harmonics, I don't get an accurate reading when I tune the ordinary way - so instead I play a double-stop with open A + octave E harmonic and get that open 5th solid. Then I open up to the D capo and compare that octave harmonic with my open D, and yet another open 5th with the octave harmonics on both open A and the stopped low D. Any discrepancies that occur I just split the difference...

Chris

[Bob Branstetter]

Originally Posted by KSB - Ken Smith

Hey, the day we can all play the Bass as well 'not in tune' as the C-extensions are set, will be a day to celebrate!

Well said! I couldn't agree more.

[Paul Warburton]

Originally Posted by KSB - Ken Smith

Hey, the day we can all play the Bass as well 'not in tune' as the C-extensions are set, will be a day to celebrate!

Play a fiver and solve that problem!

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Paul Warburton

Play a fiver and solve that problem!

The point here Uncle Pauly is that Strings just don't play in tune together. Not perfectly anyway. Doesn't matter how many strings on your Bass. Listen to a Bass section play an Ab together and then we can talk.

Playing by yourself is not the same as playing in a String Section. The Pitch seems to move around a bit. Thank got they finally too the Frets out..

[Paul Warburton]

Originally Posted by KSB - Ken Smith

The point here Uncle Pauly is that Strings just don't play in tune together. Not perfectly anyway. Doesn't matter how many strings on your Bass. Listen to a Bass section play an Ab together and then we can talk.

Playing by yourself is not the same as playing in a String Section. The Pitch seems to move around a bit. Thank got they finally too the Frets out..

I stay away from string sections.

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Paul Warburton

I stay away from string sections.

You stay away from string sections? Unless you are playing Tuba now, you are a section of ONE each time you play..

[Paul Warburton]

Originally Posted by KSB - Ken Smith

You stay away from string sections? Unless you are playing Tuba now, you are a section of ONE each time you play..

That's why I play jazz. When I heard you play over the phone you sounded like Ray Brown. You should do more of that.

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Paul Warburton

That's why I play jazz. When I heard you play over the phone you sounded like Ray Brown. You should do more of that.

I played a Duo yesterday at the Philly Art Museum. Vibes and Bass only! All Acoustic! I used the Cornerless Storioni Bass. My fingers were blistered after 2 sets. I got a tooth pick and let the blood out, cleaned up and played the last set. It was a 4hr gig, 1 hr on, 30min off.. 3 long sets.. I took a 2 chorus solo minimum on each tune except one song..

Saturday night using the Gilkes I played a big Symphony Concert doing Bethovans 6th and Mussorgsky/Pictures.. Kinda like night n day, literally..