Newbie with setup questions. (yes, ive read the stickies)

[togglehead]

Hey folks...been playing electric for 20 years or more...and finally was able to (practically) steal an upright from a guy recently. Gig bag, bow, stand and bass....killer price. There is no apparent brand name, and all i know is that its a 4/4 size. Everything is wood....no plastic. Based on the setup it has....it really looks like the guy bought it, and never used it for more than furniture.

Anyway...my readings have brought me to a few things that need addressing, and since i have always done MOST of my own work on my electrics (including some more difficult mods), i figured id tackle these seemingly small issues as well.

1. The nut is way too high. I can probably fit 3-5 business cards under there, if not more. Makes anything in 1st position difficult to play. My first thoughts...bridge adjustment...

2. Although, Even with the high nut height...the D and G seem to buzz a little up till about where the 5th fret would be. Now what?

3. End pin is very difficult to move around in the cork down there. Is there something i SHOULDNT lube it up with?

Beyond that, everything looks and sounds nice. Soundpin is in the correct place, as well as the bridge.

Thanks in advance...

[michaeln]

Originally Posted by togglehead

1. The nut is way too high. I can probably fit 3-5 business cards under there, if not more. Makes anything in 1st position difficult to play. My first thoughts...bridge adjustment...

Your first thought should have been "nut adjustment". If the nut slots are too high, it needs to be reworked. That doesn't necessarily just mean cutting the slots deeper either, because the strings should be sitting only about 1/2 their diameter in the slots, so that means reshaping the top of the nut as well as the slots. Maybe you can do it yourself, but I think you should have a bass luthier look at it.

2. Although, Even with the high nut height...the D and G seem to buzz a little up till about where the 5th fret would be. Now what?

It's likely that the fingerboard needs to be planed so there is some scoop around the area where the string vibrates the most. Typically, it's a job for a luthier. Get a 36 to 48" straightedge and lay it along the fingerboard. You should definitely see some clearance in the middle, maybe 1/8" or so at the 12th stop. This is similar to what happens when you adjust the truss rod on an electric bass, but ABs don't have truss rods.

3. End pin is very difficult to move around in the cork down there. Is there something i SHOULDNT lube it up with?

I would say you shouldn't lube it. If it doesn't fit right the fit should be corrected. If you lube it you'll just make a mess and be unlikely to fix the problem. Again, a luthier should look at it.

I guess if you got it cheap enough, you can probably mess with these things yourself, but frankly you kind of sound like you don't know how (fixing the high nut action with a bridge, for example).

[Cody Sisk]

Estimates on setup work are free from any respected double bass luthier. At minimum get a quote on the work then sort out what you feel comfortable working on and what you want to leave to a luthier.

Guitar luthierie and double bass luthierie are two completely different animals. You can read all the books and TB threads in existence and you will still have a learning curve that your bass will have to suffer through.

[bigolbassguy]

Originally Posted by DallasStrings

Estimates on setup work are free from any respected double bass luthier. At minimum get a quote on the work then sort out what you feel comfortable working on and what you want to leave to a luthier.

Guitar luthierie and double bass luthierie are two completely different animals. You can read all the books and TB threads in existence and you will still have a learning curve that your bass will have to suffer through.

+++1

If you've got buzzing combined with a fixed bridge, your 'seemingly small' problems are going to be a lot more involved than you think.

IMHO - If you try the work yourself it's going to kick your ass.

...just sayin'

[drurb]

Agree completely with all of the above. Seek professional advice in person (a luthier).

[togglehead]

Originally Posted by michaeln

Your first thought should have been "nut adjustment". If the nut slots are too high, it needs to be reworked. That doesn't necessarily just mean cutting the slots deeper either, because the strings should be sitting only about 1/2 their diameter in the slots, so that means reshaping the top of the nut as well as the slots. Maybe you can do it yourself, but I think you should have a bass luthier look at it.

Yikes...i feel like a moron. I def meant to type nut adjustment.

For the record...i have built electric nuts (4-7 strings) from scratch MANY times...including the entire rewiring of a 3 band pick up system...and turned about 5 fretted basses into fretlesses with replaning and radius sanding the necks. I dont blame you all for thinking i cant undertake a project like this...(and youre probably right!) but i do feel i should have made myself a bit more clear. =]

I have three file kits. The strings only have about 1/4 of their diameter sunk into the nut...so i will begin that job, adjusting the top height if need be.

The bridge is not adjustable....but also looks like it was never setup or shaven. I'll check the fingerboard scoop with a straight edge as you suggested, also.

I do intend on taking this to a luthier to have him do the stuff i worry about (or need tools for), but i need to keep my costs down as much as possible....ya dig?

For the record...i bought it for $300 bucks.

[togglehead]

To pontificate further...i see exactly what you meant.

The nut adjustment will be easy. I just spent a few minutes on the E string and its already worlds better...but the buzzing got worse, as we expected. Straight edge confirms the fingerboard needs a planing. Seems simple enough....

...but im going to let a pro do it. =]

thanks folks!

[drurb]

Originally Posted by togglehead

To pontificate further...i see exactly what you meant.

The nut adjustment will be easy. I just spent a few minutes on the E string and its already worlds better...but the buzzing got worse, as we expected. Straight edge confirms the fingerboard needs a planing. Seems simple enough....

...but im going to let a pro do it. =]

thanks folks!

You're wise! Dressing a fingerboard is anything but simple (at least, for me).

[michaeln]

Originally Posted by togglehead

For the record...i bought it for $300 bucks.

At that price, if you totally fsck it up you can fill it with dirt and plant flowers in the F holes.

[Andrew McGregor]

Well, if you've done fretless BG necks successfully, you could do the planing yourself... but you might do better going to an experienced luthier this time, and asking for a lesson in fingerboard planing as well as the job done :-)

[what the pluck]

Originally Posted by michaeln

At that price, if you totally fsck it up you can fill it with dirt and plant flowers in the F holes.

I've always thought it would be cool to make speaker enclosures out of a couple of dead basses. For the record if I continued trying to set my bass up myself I would of had the first one already!

[togglehead]

Originally Posted by Andrew McGregor

Well, if you've done fretless BG necks successfully, you could do the planing yourself... but you might do better going to an experienced luthier this time, and asking for a lesson in fingerboard planing as well as the job done :-)

In this case youre right. Im not so afraid of screwing something up mechanically...its just that i have no prior experience as to what the bow/plane should be when finished....being new to upright and all. I know my way around electrics well enough so i could determine my own desired set up...not so in this case.

Also the nut isnt ebony, as its filing down becoming brown. I suspect the fingerboard will do the same...so best leave it to the pros...who will likely return it re-dyed.

Id wonder what its like underneath though...as, i think a NOT black fingerboard would look pretty with the right wood...

[togglehead]

Originally Posted by michaeln

At that price, if you totally fsck it up you can fill it with dirt and plant flowers in the F holes.

My thoughts exactly. From another view point....it makes it worthy to put some money into a pro setup, since...it'll STILL be cheaper than a Kay!

(and a carlo robelli)

[Cody Sisk]

Sigh, the "wally world" principle wins out every time.. As long as it is at least shaped like a bass, the rock-bottom price is all that counts in the decision to purchase. I predict that your luthier can expect a lot of arguing and bickering over the price of the "pro setup" you're looking for. I've had the same conversation too many times and it's always equally futile. "Why the price? It's just a $500 bass.." To put it into perspective, have you ever been asked to work on a guitar bought from a big box retailer?

To save your luthier the headache of explanation, here's the cold, hard facts- You're going to spend the same amount of money on dressing the fingerboard alone as you paid for the entire instrument. Expect another couple hundred minimum on a descent bridge. Your tailpiece and tailwire probably aren't sufficient to support the tension of a good set of strings so those will need to be changed out, another hundred bucks minimum. Your endpin is probably not functioning as it should, at least another $150-$200. Hopefully you have a big enough end block to support a good-quality endpin. Chances are it's just a 2x4 so expect the entire bottom end to cave in in a couple years. A good set of entry-level strings will cost around $120. You might need a new soundpost as well. I've found a lot of mystery wood soundposts that aren't cut properly. I'm 99% sure you'll need a new one, add another $50-$100.

So expect to drop at least a grand into setup for your bass. Even after all these improvements, it will still sound like a cheap bass and will probably self destruct in a few years only from the tension of the strings.

I feel like I'm repeating information that's all over this forum over and over again. Good basses are expensive for a reason. If you're serious about playing double bass, make a serious investment.

[togglehead]

Originally Posted by DallasStrings

If you're serious about playing double bass, make a serious investment.

I understand your statement...but i entirely disagree. Its not WHAT you play....its how you play it. People used to give me weird looks when i pulled a squire out of the gig bag...but i keep getting work...so, i must be doing something right.

Im not trying to get the bass into pro tone world. I want it playable...so i can learn on it, get the few gigs ive been offered, then consider buying a pro instrument one of these days. Or preferably, let it pay for itself.

Ive got a squire P-Bass 5er that after new electronics and a general setup all over...its my main player. Few reasons: It sounds "almost" as good as my custom J-Bass....and ill basically not care at all if it got ruined/stolen at a gig. I feel the same way over a cheap upright. Id feel a little nervous carrying 5 grand around and leaving it at the stage while im at the bar. I know it'd be hard for someone to just walk off with it, but knocking it over?

Ive had a friend (whos been playing upright for 15 years) look at it in the meantime, and he said everything is of surprising quality for its price. That works for me. Ill send the 300 on a proper dressing and go from there.

Thanks for all your help folks. =]

[Eric Hochberg]

Your Squire analogy isn't valid IMO. I don't think even the lowly Squire is known to fail piece by piece as are cheap, poorly constructed double basses. You need to have a luthier go over your bass to tell you if you have a disaster waiting to happen or an instrument worth putting money into.

When it comes to taking an expensive instrument out on gigs, in my world, you buy it to play it and you spend the money for quality of sound and construction. I wouldn't want to play an inferior instrument in public, you just can't overly worry about damage and you do your best to prevent it. Funny you should mention not wanting to see your bass knocked over, as mine was knocked over twice last week, thankfully with no ill effects. And it doesn't matter if you're in a funky bar, or playing on Oprah (one of the stage hands bumped into it and it went over...), **** happens.

[Cody Sisk]

Originally Posted by togglehead

I understand your statement...but i entirely disagree. Its not WHAT you play....its how you play it.

You need to start with something playable. If you want to play with proper technique, you have to have an instrument that's setup properly. The point I was trying to make above is that a proper setup to even get your bass playable will be a considerable investment. A squire is at least playable, it's no comparison.

So if you do the math-

$300 "bass" +
$1000-$1500 setup =
A new Shen SB80 from Upton Bass.

The SB80 blows your bass out of the water in terms of quality and you'll end up paying the same for it as you will fixing up your BSO (bass-shaped object). There's a number of threads here that preach this same wisdom. Though who's to stop you if you have to learn the hard way. After all, it's your money you'll be throwing away.

Good luck..

[michaeln]

I am a "many decades" electric bass player who has recently taken up acoustic bass. I first bought a gorgeous-looking 1997 Engelhardt S1 for what I thought was a decent price. I had a feeling it would need a setup. Well, got it home and man did it ever need one. It was painful to play, very high action and nut way too high (business cards? I could fit a phone book in there!).

Took it to a local luthier. He quoted me about $550 to fix the minimum stuff it needed to make it playable (nut work, new soundpost, new bridge with adjusters, a new set of strings). This guy isn't cheap, but there aren't that many AB-specific luthiers near San Francisco (at least that I could find). He also pointed out that it should have the solid tailpiece wire replaced and a new endpin installed, and showed me that the fingerboard was not ebony but was stained maple and would wear quickly.

I declined to leave the bass with him and instead took the bass with me to think about whether or not I wanted to put the money into it. If I spent the money I would have had about $1550 into it, and I still needed a decent bag for it (another $100+).

I went to Steve Swan Guitars for a second opinion. He doesn't do setups there but contracts with several northern California bass gurus to do setups for him. He explained that even with a setup that would cost about the same as I was quoted by the other guy, it would need a lower bridge (considerably lower) and that would cause a reduction in string tension on the top of the bass.... meaning even less volume. It appears it was a very sturdily-constructed bass, but really wouldn't produce much sound because it was so stiff.

I checked out the one plywood Shen he had in stock (he had just sold the SB80 he had), which was an SB90 (blonde, better tuners, spruce ply top instead of maple ply top). It had already been set up well by Jeff Sahs in Sacramento, with a good bridge with adjusters, properly planed ebony fingerboard, properly set up nut, decent endpin and tailpiece wire, and it came with a pretty nice padded case and a new set of D'Addario Hybrid strings.

Steve, (who is a very good bassist), played my bass and a 1967 Kay C1 for me, along with the Shen SB90. The Shen was clearly the best sounding of the three, and when I tried playing it it was also the easiest to play.

Steve made me a great deal on the Shen and I was able to go home with it for very little more than I would have had wrapped up in the Engelhardt. I left the Engelhardt there for a few days and then went back to bring it home. Put it up for sale and sold it for $100 more than I paid for it, and that made going for the Shen a "wash" on price, but I ended up with a FAR better instrument than the Engelhardt would have been even with the money poured into it. I also think the Engelhardt even with its issues is probably a better bass than the one you have there.

This is just one newbie's experience, but I thought it was similar enough to your situation that I should bring it up.

[togglehead]

Originally Posted by DallasStrings

You need to start with something playable. If you want to play with proper technique, you have to have an instrument that's setup properly. The point I was trying to make above is that a proper setup to even get your bass playable will be a considerable investment. A squire is at least playable, it's no comparison.

So if you do the math-

$300 "bass" +
$1000-$1500 setup =
A new Shen SB80 from Upton Bass.

The SB80 blows your bass out of the water in terms of quality and you'll end up paying the same for it as you will fixing up your BSO (bass-shaped object). There's a number of threads here that preach this same wisdom. Though who's to stop you if you have to learn the hard way. After all, it's your money you'll be throwing away.

Good luck..

Ok...first of all....id like to make clear that i very much appreciate the experience of a long time player. Please Do not take my words personally, or misunderstand me as not grateful, just because im disagreeing. =]

I cant afford to spend $2000 on seeing whether or not this is worth it. $600ish (total, in many payments) is something more logical for me right now. Am i financially ready for the entire investment of being a double bass owner...no, im sure not. But am i going to let that stop my drive? No...no im not.

That being said...having never come anywhere near my actual bass....how can you TRULY say how much of a POS it is? That, to me, just seems irresponsible. If you were going on the "hypothetical (and probable)" situation that is more common than i can understand...and forgive me for not understanding. Im just saying, is it not possible i got one of those rare gems that show up now and again?

I just dont appreciate the fanatic mentality. No one here has even entertained the possibility that it might not be that bad...regardless of that likeliness.

Moving along to the more realistic side of things. I'm broke. I got a nice opportunity to learn on something far cheaper than my taste usually dictates, so i jumped on it. I had to make payments to get myself this bass in the first place....cheap as it was. Not that i have much reference...but it seems loud, has a tone i like, and gives me zero trouble so far...shy the slight buzzing.

After reading through all the email exchange with the seller again, he stated he bought the bass 10 years ago for just under $1800. Him having been a personal dealer for Parker guitars a few years back...i cant see why i shoudnt believe him. He had a nice house...nice car...etc...

I will proceed with taking it to the luthier (as i said i would) and see where we go from there.

And for the record...i dont find a squire playable off the wall at guitar center. ;P

Thanks again folks.

[togglehead]

To reiterate....im not trying to argue my validity here...as i admit to knowing next to nothing about DB ownership and setups. Its just that not a single person here asked me for a photo of anything on my instrument before proclaiming how terrible it was.

Right or wrong...it makes me wonder how opinionated these 'facts' are. I suppose i just lean on the scientific method more than others...=]