Newest basket case

MollyKay · #1 12-08-2007, 09:51 PM

This is the newest "basket case" bass to restore into playing condition! This is a 1947 Kay C-1 that some unappreciative bass playing person painted

with a black spray bomb to cover some flaws and poor repairs. Amazingly the old paint is coming off pretty easily and is thankfully revealing the original Kay sun burst finish. Once the paint has been removed to the best of our ability is there any reasonable way to save the origin finish by sealing it. There will need to be some repairs and patching, so once we get it to the finishing stage I’m thinking add a little color to an oil varnish to finish it. Is there any know chemical reaction between an old lacquer finish and a new oil varnish. The old finish is so dried out all that really remains the pigment color. Suggestions and opinions are welcome and just a reminder…this is our hobby…restoring old plywood basses that no one else want to give the TLC and put time into solid repairs.

Jake deVilliers · #2 12-09-2007, 12:27 AM

Is there a reason you don't want to lacquer it? I really like the look of satin lacquer on older Kays - more of a glow than a shine and easy to spray on.

MollyKay · #3 12-09-2007, 08:37 AM

Hummm…I don’t know. I guess mostly because we are against a sprayed finish for basses…even though we are completely set up with a compressor, spray gun and paint booth (the monkey was into restoring cars and motorcycles in the 80’s). So far a hand rubbed finish has been the look we like. I agree a sprayed lacquer finish would be more correct for this bass. Being a novice I guess we sometimes take the long way around…

Bob Branstetter · #4 12-09-2007, 01:54 PM

You were lucky that there was the original finish under the black paint. I had one a couple of years ago where someone had stripped or rather sanded off the old finish and then painted it black. I got it from a guy who tried to strip off the black, but gave up before it was finished. Here are the before and after photos. The finished bass photo greatly exaggerates the amount of red in the lacquer.

Jake deVilliers · #5 12-09-2007, 03:43 PM

You have American Standard and Kay basses, both of which were sprayed with nitrocellulose lacquer at the factory.

This is Satin Lacquer on a 1950 M-1. It fits right in when parked beside the two '39s we have here.

MollyKay · #6 12-10-2007, 08:47 PM

Wow! Great restore jobs on both basses. I love the flaming in the ’50 Kay M-1…gorgeous.

We will see what finish is left on my bass once we get all the black paint off…my husband said it is like taking the clear coat off a car with out damaging the paint…not and easy job. This bass had great tone with a ridiculous set up. The bridge that was on this bass had pieces of a wooden yard stick nailed to the bottom to make the bridge taller…I am continuously amazed at what people do to these old basses???

Heifetzbass · #7 12-11-2007, 04:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MollyKay

The bridge that was on this bass had pieces of a wooden yard stick nailed to the bottom to make the bridge taller…I am continuously amazed at what people do to these old basses???

Hey! That's a great idea!!

Bob Branstetter · #8 12-11-2007, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jake deVilliers

You have American Standard and Kay basses, both of which were sprayed with nitrocellulose lacquer at the factory.

This is Satin Lacquer on a 1950 M-1. It fits right in when parked beside the two '39s we have here.

I'm with Jake when it comes to refinishing Kays and (H.N. White) AS & Kings which were originally finished with nitrocellulose lacquer at the factory. People toss around the word "restore" when they really mean strip and refinish with what ever they happen to like and/or find at the local Home Depot or Loews store. I can understand this if you don't have access to spray facilities, but if you do, IMO lacquer is the proper finish for these basses. After all, people pay outrageous prices for Kays and such in prime condition with the original lacquer finish.

BTW, don't forget the double black pin stripe "purfling" if you want the bass to look "restored" rather than "refinished".

arnoldschnitzer · #9 12-11-2007, 11:19 AM

Perhaps a word of warning would be in order. Lacquer is explosive. You can kill yourself with it if you are not careful. The fumes can seriously hurt you if you manage to not blow yourself up. And the release of fumes into the atmosphere is both environmentally harmful and illegal. But the benefits of a crackly, chippy, ugly finish are certainly worth the trouble...

Bob Branstetter · #10 12-11-2007, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldschnitzer

Perhaps a word of warning would be in order. Lacquer is explosive. You can kill yourself with it if you are not careful. The fumes can seriously hurt you if you manage to not blow yourself up. And the release of fumes into the atmosphere is both environmentally harmful and illegal. :

Arnold - While I respect your opinion, there are lots of things in a typical luthier's shop that are both dangerous and explosive when not used properly. I've been spraying lacquer and other finishes with volatile solvents in my home and shop for well over 40 years and I have yet to kill myself or blow up my shop or anyone else for that matter. While it may be illegal where you live, it is certainly NOT illegal where I live.

Is it the best finish for ALL basses? Certainly not. Ugly? I would say that is in the eye of the beholder. Chippy, crackly? I doubt if it is any worse than many spirit varnishes. OTOH, it does have the advantage of being one of the fastest drying finishes commonly available and one of the few that can be used (with aniline dyes) to easily achieve the sunburst effect that is a trademark of the majority of Kay basses.

arnoldschnitzer · #11 12-12-2007, 07:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Branstetter

Arnold - While I respect your opinion, there are lots of things in a typical luthier's shop that are both dangerous and explosive when not used properly. I've been spraying lacquer and other finishes with volatile solvents in my home and shop for well over 40 years and I have yet to kill myself or blow up my shop or anyone else for that matter. While it may be illegal where you live, it is certainly NOT illegal where I live.

Bob, I think EPA regulations apply to all states. I'm very happy you have not blown yourself up.

arnoldschnitzer · #12 12-12-2007, 07:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Branstetter

Is it the best finish for ALL basses? Certainly not. Ugly? I would say that is in the eye of the beholder. Chippy, crackly? I doubt if it is any worse than many spirit varnishes. OTOH, it does have the advantage of being one of the fastest drying finishes commonly available and one of the few that can be used (with aniline dyes) to easily achieve the sunburst effect that is a trademark of the majority of Kay basses.

Good argument. I never expect less from you. But I just don't think nitro is a good finish for basses.

Bob Branstetter · #13 12-12-2007, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldschnitzer

Bob, I think EPA regulations apply to all states. I'm very happy you have not blown yourself up.

If the EPA regulations (NOT laws) prohibit lacquer being used, I guess they will have to came after me, most of the new home builders, and speciality shops including many guitar shops. I would think that if it is illegal to use then it would be illegal for places like paint stores, Home Depot, and Lowes to sell it. Since I have Zero problem buying it at these places, I will continue to use it when I feel the need (at least until the environmental Nazis come after me).

MollyKay · #14 12-12-2007, 02:29 PM

[/QUOTE BTW, don't forget the double black pin stripe "purfling" if you want the bass to look "restored" rather than "refinished".

[/quote]

Yep...we have that tool too! No problem to put a double or a single pin stripe on. Heck! We could give them a metallic finish, flame it and put sword stripes on it (car guys stuff; sorry…can you say “street rods”).

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldschnitzer

Perhaps a word of warning would be in order. Lacquer is explosive. You can kill yourself with it if you are not careful. The fumes can seriously hurt you if you manage to not blow yourself up. And the release of fumes into the atmosphere is both environmentally harmful and illegal.

This is the very reason why my husband no longer restores car and motorcycles as a hobby. There are fewer and fewer ways to get rid of your waste materials. You really need to think about what you are using and where to dispose of it properly. Even mixing shop rag with different chemicals can pose a hazard. The oil varnish finish may not be "original" for the American made plywood basses...but then neither is a black spray bomb. Restore, refinish or what ever you want to call it...we just want to keep these old basses in good health and playable for future players.

Bob Branstetter · #15 12-13-2007, 10:19 AM

I am not a lawyer and don't pretend to understand legal language, but after several hours of Google searching, I could not find any EPA regulation that prohibits an individual from using nitrocellulose lacquer in restoration. From what I've found, the regulations are primarily aimed at the manufacturers of paint products and the the use of the products in the production of another product (like automobiles, etc). There are exemptions in the regulations for businesses and persons doing restoration of things that were originally finished with nitrocellulose lacquer. States have the right to enact laws more stringent than the EPA and California is one that has done so.

If there are any lawyers in this group who are familiar with the EPA regulation, I would appreciate hearing from them. From what I've found it appears that I'm not breaking any law or regulation by spraying lacquer.

Eric Swanson · #16 12-13-2007, 11:28 AM

I am a cabinetmaker by trade...we deal with this a bit in my industry. The relevant regulations, I believe, are about V.O.C. emissions (volatile organic compounds) for wood finishing. These have gotten tighter and tighter over the years. My current firm has given up spraying anything but waterborne primer because of the change in regs over the past few years.

Many (cabinetry/millwork/furniture) shops have switched to waterborne finishes for this reason. They aren't the same, but they are less toxic/explosive.

The finishing industry has also developed hundreds of new products with lower VOC levels, not to mention overspray collection systems, etc.

You are right, it is not "illegal" to buy or shoot lacquer per se. However, it is all about the type of product, the amount it gets used, how you deal with waste disposal, etc. It is technically illegal to spray commercially without complying with the current regs. (which I can't quote without lots of digging). The reality is that iit is unlikely that anyone will come after you if you are spraying on a small scale.

Arnold's points about toxicity and danger are +1 for me, too. The reason the regs have tightened is because of this, both for the folks spraying and for the rest of us living here (earth)

.

I saw that you did some searching on Google. It may be fruitful to try searching for "V.O.C. regulations for wood finishing," for example. The keyword is the acronym V.O.C..

Lots of examples. Here is one general discussion that provides some overview:

http://www.greenseal.org/resources/r...ood_finish.pdf

The larger and more personally significant issue may be your insurance coverage. Most/all policies have disclaimers about not doing anything in the home (assuming you are working from a home shop at this point) that defies "currently acceptable safe practice" (read compliant with current regulations). Business policies have similar disclaimers about doing anything that defies current O.S.H.A. regs. (like ignoring current allowable VOC levels.). Having been through a few insurance incidents as a manager in various companies, I can report that these disclaimers are the first things that many adjuster look for to avoid payment in case of an accident.

Current "safe" practice would mean explosion-proof bulbs and fan, acceptable V.O.C. emission levels, appropriate respirator use, appropriate toxic waste disposal, product selection, overspray recycling, etc. In other words, if something burns/blows, all the insurance premiums paid won't be worth the proverbial hill of beans if the adjusters figure out that you were shooting lacquer in any remotely bootleg manner.

The other issue is zoning, which certainly does vary regionally. Where I live, spraying lacquer commercially (for any paying work) in a residential neighborhood is not okay. Rub the neighbors the wrong way and you are all done.

So the point that "we did it for decades with no problem", while well taken, may not fit here. More has been revealed about links between disease/toxicity as well as all that we are learning about pollution. The reason the regs changed is because these products are bad news for humans, for a start.

The problem is that the toxic stuff (especially the hardcore toxics like the catalzed finishes) are the best for (furniture and millwork) finishing, for clarity, durability, economy, and drying/cure times. My industry has been in an uproar about this for about 20 years.

The acoustic issues of varnish vs. lacquer are outside my knowledge so I will stay out of that. However, as a Plant Manager for an architectural millwork shop, I know a little about lacquer and V.O.C.'s. Just enough to stay out of trouble with the local government and the insurance company.

Whether any/all of this is relevant to the fellow/gal spraying a bass or two in his/her garage shop is really up to local government and the relevant insurance companies. Hope that this helps...

Bob Branstetter · #17 12-13-2007, 02:13 PM

Thank you for you input. Apparently, enforcement is very different depending on where you happen to reside. I asked the local paint & varnish store about it and they told me that Nitrocellulose Lacquer was still one of their largest selling items. I guess it is safe to say that I'm not the only one using it around here in the Midwest.

This is yet another example of why so many companies and corporations are now outsourcing their manufacturing facilities to places without the EPA and OSHA regulations.

Keyser Soze · #18 12-13-2007, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Branstetter

Thank you for you input. Apparently, enforcement is very different depending on where you happen to reside. I asked the local paint & varnish store about it and they told me that Nitrocellulose Lacquer was still one of their largest selling items. I guess it is safe to say that I'm not the only one using it around here in the Midwest.

This is yet another example of why so many companies and corporations are now outsourcing their manufacturing facilities to places without the EPA and OSHA regulations.

Seen any pictures of the "air quality" in industrial China lately? Yes, "seen" the air. If not, you'll get a good look during the upcoming Olympics; it'll be a huge story.

Do you want your kids and grandkids to breathe toxic air like that? The Chinese, "beneficiaries" of much of the outsourcing you reference above, are poisononing their familes, their neighbors, their country and the earth. Not that we in the US haven't done it for decades. But we're slowly getting a clue; no more asbestos, lead paint, etc.

Like you, I love the vintage finishes. Unlike you, apparently, I judge the welfare of the human race and the ecosystem to be more important than a "nice vintage finish."

Bob Branstetter · #19 12-13-2007, 04:49 PM

We stopped using reason about the environment a long time ago. It is now nothing short of a religion for many. I personally would much rather have a little pollution and full employment with good jobs than to be the healthiest unemployed nation on earth. When you have a country with a huge trade imbalances and virtually no manufacturing base, the economy is eventually going to hit children and grandchildren with the big whammy.

Jake deVilliers · #20 12-13-2007, 04:53 PM

Whoa........let's keep things in perspective here. We're not talking about setting up factories with three shifts, we're talking about re-finishing one bass.

The one Kay that I re-lacquer every two or three years pales in comparison to the environmental impact of ONE plane trip to Vegas. I sleep well at night.