No nylon tailpiece hangers...ever!!!

[reedo35]

Last week,Against my better judgement, I decided to try something new. I decided to try a newfangled nylon tailpiece hanger on my bass. (not the Clef one upton sells, but one with a screw type fastener. Got it from (all hail!) Bob G. Not his fault, he didn't recommend it anyway, but it looked really cool... So anyway, I got it on, no problem, adjusted it to where I wanted it, no problem and set it up. Then it started s-t-r-e-t-c-h-i-n-g. A little miffed, i readjusted it, and tuned the bass up again. More stretching, and then SNAP! tailpiece flies up, bridge flies off, soundpost falls... Ticked off, I give it one more try with the same results..grrr...So this morning, I go to home depot get some old-fashioned cable and ferrule, and adjust it the old way and now it's fine. Sometimes new stuff isn't all it's cracked up to be.
Anyway, in an unrelated question I am also thinking about getting a new bridge.. Anybody have any recommendations for that? I am not planning to install that myself, I'll let my luthier do it. I've
had enough stress for awhile....

[KSB - Ken Smith]

What kind of ferrule does HomeDepot have? Is this a Barrel type with 2 set screws? Pic?

[reedo35]

No, its the one with a crimpable sleeve. I'll see if I can get some pics.

[Matthew Tucker]

Braided cable hangers like the Clef one work just fine and the knot is easy to tie.

[reedo35]

Thanks, I'll stick with the metal cable. I put a little shrink wrap tubing on it so it doesn't mark up the saddle and it works just fine

[Bob Branstetter]

Originally Posted by reedo35

Thanks, I'll stick with the metal cable. I put a little shrink wrap tubing on it so it doesn't mark up the saddle and it works just fine

I'm with you. I've never had a metal cable fail in over 40 years of installing them. Howeer, like you, I've seen problems with the Sacconni type nylon tailguts on basses. They work great on violins, violas, and cellos, but I stopped using them on basses many years ago.

[lhoward]

Originally Posted by KSB - Ken Smith

What kind of ferrule does HomeDepot have? Is this a Barrel type with 2 set screws? Pic?

I've checked local Lowes and Home Depots, and some other regional stores here in Western NY and PA in connection with business trips, to find a barrel type and I haven't found one yet. What I have found everywhere is an aluminum dual, joined hole ferrel that requires a special crimping tool to ensure a proper crimp. Although the company that makes them also makes ones out of stainless steel and copper, no one seems to carry them or can/will order them. Obviously, aluminum is not suitable IMO.

I put on a synthetic hanger cord over two months ago and after intial stretching for over 5 weeks, ( Tailgut Replacement ) its gotten to a point that seems to have stablilized. The only thing that I did that may have been different from other installs is that I put a seizing wrap around each respective end of the cord and its standing companion on either side of the knot. I then put the knot on the backside of the endpin plug with the tension holding the knot against the groove on the plug.

I'm still intending on changing it to wire, but the problem in locating the barrel type is leading me to either to try to make one myself or go to a local machine shop and have two or three stainless rods (about 1.5" long and 5/8" diam) drilled along the longitudinal axis and each tapped radially for four set screws. Although the synthetic cord I used is one of the better brands available, I probably will be more comfortable with steel. I have an Italian bass that I had stranded wire replace the solid tailpiece hanger wire about 20 years ago by a luthier and its never been a problem.

Lloyd Howard

[reedo35]

Originally Posted by lhoward

What I have found everywhere is an aluminum dual, joined hole ferrel that requires a special crimping tool to ensure a proper crimp.

That "special" crimping tool is either vise grips or a hammer. The vise grips worked fine for me and it hasn't slipped a bit.

[Bob Branstetter]

Originally Posted by reedo35

That "special" crimping tool is either vise grips or a hammer. The vise grips worked fine for me and it hasn't slipped a bit.

While you are correct that you can can close the Nicopress type cable clamps with hammer, etc., The "special" tool does certainly exist. The Nicopress brand crimping tool is expensive (i.e. over $100), but it produces a nice cylindrical crimp in one pass. However, both Loews and Home Depot carry a crimping tool made in China that works similar to the Nicopress tool, but it has the disadvantage of requiring 3 passes to complete the crimp and the crimp is hexagonal cylinder. I use one that I bought at Loews for about $30. The stainless steel clamps are available on the internet. Search for "Nicopress".

[reedo35]

Originally Posted by Bob Branstetter

While you are correct that you can can close the Nicopress type cable clamps with hammer, etc., The "special" tool does certainly exist.

You are absolutely right, Mr. B. But I am not a professional luthier,
and I couldn't justify spending that amount on a tool that I would use once (maybe twice) Yes, the vise grips did not make a perfectly hexagonal cylinder, but they got the job done.

[Bob Branstetter]

Originally Posted by reedo35

You are absolutely right, Mr. B. But I am not a professional luthier,
and I couldn't justify spending that amount on a tool that I would use once (maybe twice) Yes, the vise grips did not make a perfectly hexagonal cylinder, but they got the job done.

If you don't want to buy the proper tool, my advice (for anyone else) would be to use a hammer and smash it flat rather than trying to squeeze it cylindrical with vice grips. Even with the largest vice grips, you can't get anywhere near the leverage of the Nicropress or Loews/Home Depot crimping tools.

[KSB - Ken Smith]

I have a bass with this white Rope looking tailgut that is a stranded off-white/light greyish color about 1/8th thick. It is tied in a knot and singed/burned(melted?) at the tied ends.

I don't know who put this on but the Bass was last restored in Canada by Mario unless someone put it on before or after him. I got the Bass in on a trade and do not have all of its history.

Is this the Nylon TG we are talking about here?

[Jake deVilliers]

No Ken, Mario uses the same Polyamide Rope as sold by Mike Pecanic and Upton as their "Clef Tailgut".

The fragile ones are the plastic Sacconi ones with the threaded ends. They're great on violins but don't take the tension of steel double bass strings very well!

[reedo35]

Originally Posted by Jake deVilliers

The fragile ones are the plastic Sacconi ones with the threaded ends. They're great on violins but don't take the tension of steel double bass strings very well!

Yup. That was the one that started this thread.

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Jake deVilliers

No Ken, Mario uses the same Polyamide Rope as sold by Mike Pecanic and Upton as their "Clef Tailgut".

The fragile ones are the plastic Sacconi ones with the threaded ends. They're great on violins but don't take the tension of steel double bass strings very well!

Ok.. so the Rope type I have on that bass is ok? Strength wise and how about tonally as compared to the steel cable I usually use?

[Jake deVilliers]

I like the synthetic rope. Its very light and flexible and might be the ultimate. Super strong.

Only I have a thing about tuning the afterlengths and haven't been able to do that with the synthetic rope - it stretches like crazy and makes the afterlength notes flat.

I need to find a little stainless steel turnbuckle or similar at the marine hardware store .

[FrankM]

Originally Posted by Bob Branstetter

If you don't want to buy the proper tool, my advice (for anyone else) would be to use a hammer and smash it flat rather than trying to squeeze it cylindrical with vice grips. Even with the largest vice grips, you can't get anywhere near the leverage of the Nicropress or Loews/Home Depot crimping tools.

What about checking to see if your local Lowe's Depot or maybe even your local auto parts store has one (or something similar) for rent?

[Bob Branstetter]

Originally Posted by FrankM

What about checking to see if your local Lowe's Depot or maybe even your local auto parts store has one (or something similar) for rent?

If you have an aircraft supply store in your area, that is a possible rental source. Nicopress cable connectors are widely used by light aircraft builders.

[lhoward]

Originally Posted by KSB - Ken Smith

I have a bass with this white Rope looking tailgut that is a stranded off-white/light greyish color about 1/8th thick. It is tied in a knot and singed/burned(melted?) at the tied ends.

I don't know who put this on but the Bass was last restored in Canada by Mario unless someone put it on before or after him. I got the Bass in on a trade and do not have all of its history.

Is this the Nylon TG we are talking about here?

What your describing sounds like what I used on my recent upgrade about 2 1/2 months ago. The material I used is 1/8" gray-colored, synthetic fiber cord (Samson AmSteel 1/8" cord from http://www.go2marine.com/product.do?no=38312F ). Its rated strength is minimum 1600 lbs, average 1800 lbs, much higher than that of aircraft stainless wire cable, which I believe is about 350 to 500 lbs for 1/8" cable, from what I recall seeing in Lowes, Home Depot and a local hardware store. See my previous post in this thread, #7, on the installation procedure I followed.

I had previously bought a kit from Pecanic Music, but couldn't confirm the brand/strength of the supplied synthetic cord, which I believe was a 3/16" cord. Also, I never received any responses from inquiries on the type of knot used (I had misplaced the little diagram that came with the kit), so I decided to obtain synthetic cord that I knew the strength of and the manufacturer of the cord.

Lloyd Howard

PS: Amsteel is made from Dyneema fiber. FMI, see http://www.dsm.com/en_US/html/hpf/home_dyneema.htm

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by lhoward

What your describing sounds like what I used on my recent upgrade about 2 1/2 months ago. The material I used is 1/8" gray-colored, synthetic fiber cord (Samson AmSteel 1/8" cord from http://www.go2marine.com/product.do?no=38312F ). Its rated strength is minimum 1600 lbs, average 1800 lbs, much higher than that of aircraft stainless wire cable, which I believe is about 350 to 500 lbs for 1/8" cable, from what I recall seeing in Lowes, Home Depot and a local hardware store. See my previous post in this thread, #7, on the installation procedure I followed.

I had previously bought a kit from Pecanic Music, but couldn't confirm the brand/strength of the supplied synthetic cord, which I believe was a 3/16" cord. Also, I never received any responses from inquiries on the type of knot used (I had misplaced the little diagram that came with the kit), so I decided to obtain synthetic cord that I knew the strength of and the manufacturer of the cord.

Lloyd Howard

PS: Amsteel is made from Dyneema fiber. FMI, see http://www.dsm.com/en_US/html/hpf/home_dyneema.htm

350-500lbs for Steel cable? Are you sure about that? I would imagine it to be much higher and more durable than a rope type that can fray over time.

The only failure I have ever seen with cable was one that was crimped end to end. With ether the barrel type ferrule with 2 set screws or the U-shaped cable clamp, you can over lap the wires and have the length adjustable as well. Also, on the U-clamp I double over the wires so that 4 strands pass thru the clamp over each other instead of just two. I use a nut driver to tighten it and it works just fine.

I would think that any type of cable requiring a fixed knot is more likely to fail as well as not being adjustable like the steel with clamps is.

Hanger wire, Crimps and other rope types are not for me. I prefer adjustable steel all the way.