OK, HELP!

[pnchad]

As my son says 'dad, call a professional'.

I took the plunge and decided to try and repair/restore a bass on my own with little experience in the process but some knowledge of the concepts and practices.

The bass:

1938 Voight & Gieger (Chicago) 'Thinline' fully carved gamba roundback. Nice deeply carved spruce top/maple back & sides.

The 'Thinline' design was supposed to make this bass more transportable (I guess) so it is strange in it's dimensions. Ribs are 6 - 7" max, neck is EXTREMELY thin both directions (almost as thin as a Fender at the nut), and all the wood is relatively thinner (tighter carving) than most early 20th century basses.

Mensure is a full 42" the way it was previously setup. Cool sounding, very elastic loose bass.

Last night I carefully removed the top over a 2 hour period wetting the seams and easing the old glue out. Worked fine.

Removed the tuners only to find a crack in the pegbox along the point where the cheek meets the heel.

The top has always had a depression in the wood at the treble foot of the bridge. There are also other old lateral cracks in the table. A previous repair person did a very professional job with a soundpost pad and proper buttons behind all the old cracks.

Here are my questions for anyone with experience:

1. My main reason for removing the top was to solidify all the seams top and back. Once I clean the areas of old glue, what is the best approach to apply new glue before clamping up? Tricks?

2. Is there any technique for either reshaping the top where the sag is at the bridge foot? Or, would reinforcing that area in any way effect tone and volume?

3. Is there any reason why I should maintain the 42" string length? I realize it would effect the 'D' or 'Eb' heel reference but I don't even know for sure what it was originally meant to be. Is there any other way of determining or, does it really matter? My I idea is that I would possibly be able to relocate the bridge away from the dangerous spot in the table by shortening to 41.5" or 41.25".

4. Are 2 piece tuners standard in peg length or vary?

5. The nut is VERY shallow right at the beginning of the board - barely 1 or 2mm. Is that a problem for string height? Should I cut a new nut or wait until it is put back together to test? I noticed a buzz at the 1st & 2nd positions of the G string before I took it apart. I don't remember it being there last I played it 3 years ago. I would think that the angle of the strings to the board would have to be unnaturally high making lower position OK but higher up too far off the board.

I'm sure I'll have more if anyone is so kind as to share expertise.

Thanks in advance.

[toman]

Sounds like a fun project. How about pictures? My bass needs to have the top "popped" to even out the tension, since my seams keep opening all the time, and I've been considering doing it myself every time I pay someone else to glue something back shut. (or curse as I try to do it myself, only to make a mess...)

[Eric Hochberg]

I played a V&G bass a couple of years ago at Merchant's in NYC. It had a great sound and was a very nice instrument. It seems foolish to do an amateur repair job on a bass of this quality. Why not get a cheapo to experiment on?

[pnchad]

I've had this bass for 15 yrs +/-. I bought locally where it was being stored in a humid garage. I only paid $750 for it.

It played OK, actually very well when I got it and I put in 10 solid years refreshing my DB chops after 15 yrs away from it.

Now I have two other MUCH more serious DBs and after trying to fix opening seams awhile back I realized it needed much more.

Don't worry I won't destroy it. I have local pro backup if I get into real trouble.

[Bob Branstetter]

Originally Posted by pnchad

Don't worry I won't destroy it.

Unfortunately, I've heard that story before. If you insist on doing the work yourself, may I suggest that buy or borrow a copy of Chuck Traeger's book SETUP and REPAIR of the DOUBLE BASS for OPTIMUM SOUND. The book won't make you an expert, but it may help you avoid a serious mistake that you will regret later.

[pnchad]

the second to recommend the book. I will be getting mine from Lemur next week.

Honestly though, I'm really enjoying this and I wouldn't pretend to be expert but, unless I need to attempt to replane the board or change the neck angle, it should be OK.

Does anyone know how might determine the originally intended string length???

I have already cleaned up the rib/back seams and going through the second night of gluing. Repaired the pegbox crack and am cleaning everything else. I need a few more clamps (only have 20 now) and the top can go back on!

I pretty much have to stick to the 2 piece English gears since these were countersunk into the cheeks. I've located proper replacements.

[Matthew Tucker]

Originally Posted by pnchad

Does anyone know how might determine the originally intended string length???

usually, the bridge is exactly between the nicks in the ffs. That pretty much determines your string length, as built.

[arnoldschnitzer]

Originally Posted by pnchad

1. My main reason for removing the top was to solidify all the seams top and back. Once I clean the areas of old glue, what is the best approach to apply new glue before clamping up? Tricks?

Once you have all the top edges and rib joining surfaces ready, you can glue the top back on. But don't expect to do it in one shot. Mix up some weak hide glue, and first size the end and corner blocks. Glue the top on at the end blocks first (one at a time) after the sizing is dry. Now work the glue into the seam a small area at a time with a thin artist's spatula, clamping and cleaning up the squeeze-out as you go. (Keep a damp rag and hot water with a small brush handy.) Hide glue gels in 15 to 45 seconds, so work quickly. You will probably need an assistant to align the rib assembly to the top in a few places while you put the clamps on. But keep in mind that you want to introduce as little tension as possible into the carcase. Eventually you will have the entire top glued on. It helps to have a frame of some sort to hold the bass above your work surface so you have clearance for the clamps. Also, have a long, thin wedge handy to hold open areas for you to slip in the glue. Use less glue than you think you should. Be aware that the position of the neck will affect the shape of the carcass when the top is off.

When you've gone through the Traeger book and want to sink your teeth into something denser and more substantive, see if you can find a copy of Violin Repair and Restoration by Hans Weisshar. This book is the bible for repairing string instruments.

[Bob Branstetter]

And then you can attend the Mittenwald or Cremona violin making schools, or you can etc. ad nauseam...

While some professional luthiers express distain for the Traeger book, for my money it's the best source available for practical information on repairing and setting up a bass for the person who is not already a trained luthier.

[Damon Rondeau]

Originally Posted by arnoldschnitzer

Once you have all the top edges and rib joining surfaces ready....

Hey Arnold, thanks for sharing stuff like this. Sure, somebody might cut themselves with a chisel or even -- horrors! -- wreck a bass that belongs to them. But somebody else might improve their bass and get a whole lot of enjoyment and satisfaction out of doing it. Your advice is always practical and authoritative and a huge asset to the DB forums.

What can I say? It's Thanksgiving down there, isn't it?

[pnchad]

I was thinking that the top should be glued back in one shot! You'all have seen the pics with 87 clamps all the way around. I like this approach much better much more managable too!
I will wait for the 'book' before gluing.

You're definately right about the carcase. I am going to cut a thin temporary brace the exact length from saddle to underside of heel block to keep everything stationary as I work on it and it sits for a week or more.

Thanks again guys!!!

[pnchad]

I do know the adage about lining up the bridge with the ff's.

However, that is arbitrary since I have seen fine basses setup otherwise and even the distance from front to back of bridge foot can mean the difference of 0.5" or even 1".

I also see that an earlier mod was to increase the neck angle with a shim under it at the block - probably 3 - 5 degrees. I'm not gonna mess with it since the bass played very easily the way it was. I just have to do a first rate setup.

Waiting for parts before reassembly; new wire, endpin, gears, bridge maybe nut & saddle and new strings!

The fingerboard looks really good. I cleaned and checked level last night. Not much relief but that's OK with me as long as no buzz.

[Blaine]

i have a question about gluing the top on. when the top comes off there are places where small splinters of the top break off and stay glued to the ribs. how do you handle that? do you plane the top of the ribs clean before regluing. seems there would be small missing wood on the top. i've seen pics of tops partly re-edged but it seems a bit extreme. hope i made myself clear, it's a bit early for me.

[pnchad]

Good point. It seems inevitable that there are some small splinters. I have left them there for now hoping to realign the top well enough that they will resume their original place as 'contact' points. The few I have are at the corners at the side blocks where the previous glue was spread out.

[Bob Branstetter]

Originally Posted by Blaine

i have a question about gluing the top on. when the top comes off there are places where small splinters of the top break off and stay glued to the ribs. how do you handle that? do you plane the top of the ribs clean before regluing. seems there would be small missing wood on the top. i've seen pics of tops partly re-edged but it seems a bit extreme. hope i made myself clear, it's a bit early for me.

I take a paper towel and fold it over several times and then soak it in water. Lay the towel on the edge of the ribs and leave it for an hour or so. You can get each of the splinters off without breaking them using a small thin knife to lift them away from the rib. Clean off any remaining old glue and reattach them to the top with hide glue. I use small pieces of 3/4" plywood covered with plastic wrap to press them flat while clamping. A light sanding is usually all that is needed to even out the surface for reglueing.

[pnchad]

I can't thank you and TB enough for the fantastic advice!

[pnchad]

The wet paper towel splinter removal deal worked great.

Definately have to watch the shape of the carcass and neck angle. Luckily, the top had very close tolerances at the saddle and underneath the neck heel. This way I know if it fits tightly I will re-establish the right neck angle. I'm sure glad it separated nicely at these points.

I was gonna replace the tuners but the closest I could find were $260 + so I decided to buy a grinder/polisher instead
($70) and spent 4 hours cleaning and polishing the old brass ones. They look wonderful AND aged. I'm glad I did it.

[arnoldschnitzer]

Originally Posted by pnchad

Definately have to watch the shape of the carcass and neck angle. Luckily, the top had very close tolerances at the saddle and underneath the neck heel. This way I know if it fits tightly I will re-establish the right neck angle. I'm sure glad it separated nicely at these points.

Watch out for blocks that are too long. Generally you have to trim all the blocks a little as the ribs tend to shrink across their grain and leave the blocks protruding. Check them with a straightedge and also by laying the top in place. You should not need much clamping pressure to close the top snugly against the rib assembly.

[pnchad]

for all the invaluable help.

This bass has come apart neatly and there does not seem to be and shrinkage of the ribs relative to the blocks. All appear to be very flush. But, thanks for the warning.

I still have the question of trying to reduce the mensure length. The prior setup had the bridge at almost exactly 42".

A straight line from ff ticks through the old setup's bridge feet were about 1/3 back from the leading edge (toward to neck)of the bridge foot. If I reduce the mensure by 0.5" would it be making a mistake or effect playablity, etc?

[eh_train]

Hi PNChad,

Nice to hear about your project. If I've read correctly, it seems that your motivation for changing the string length is to avoid the sunken spot in the top...

If the learning curve isn't too steep, isn't the best approach to repair the top? I had great success doing this with my old Kay. I realize, however, that ply and solid woods are very different. In the case of the Kay, the plys seemed to want to take back their curved contour (with the application of several days worth of weight, heat, and moisture).

For solid wood, I believe that Traeger talks about re-shaping the top over a LONG period of time, using warm sandbags. What about it? Is putting a solid top back into shape a task for a non-luthier????

Cheers,
Paul