Opinions

Bsatom · #1 02-02-2011, 05:25 AM

Hi, new here. I want to bounce a situation off you all.

This person asked me to do some repairs on his bass. He has a China lami bass that the back popped off and before that had the bridge placed an inch too far back. Also, the soundpost was too short and set at an angle not supporting the treble foot.
This made a 1.5 inch round depression that stayed about 1/8" deep when tension was removed from the top.

My repair plan was to get a quality soundpost, hide glue a solid spruce filler patch on the top and sand to match the original contour. We agreed that I would also glue the back on with hide glue. Then I was to fit the new straight grained Spruce soundpost correctly and set up a new adjustable bridge.

Well, this guy went to a local violin shop for a second opinion, and was given 1/8" Birch plywood and told to glue in a 3" x 6" slab on the top and back. He did this. This slabs was just slapped on the unprepared surfaces with Titebond glue. The slabs are centered under the treble foot and on the back. He removed the original solid Spruce round soundpost "pads". He did this on his own with no direction from me. I would not have done this in this way.
He now wants me to finish the work as I originally proposed. I think the giant slap patches he did are gawd awful and there is zero point in fitting a quality soundpost anymore. This person has seen my work on a 1951 Kay M-1 and 1992 Herrmann/Gleasel. He has played both of those basses and was absolutely impressed. Now he does this slab patch stunt without my approval, on verbal instruction from someone he has no experience with.Should I touch this bass again? Yay or Nay?

iiipopes · #2 02-02-2011, 05:41 AM

In any other situation, I wouldn't touch it. But with this bad economy, I would consider it. However, I would tell him that to undo the improper repairs and redo it properly, including sanding out the Titebond, it will cost 2 to 3 times as much, and at this point, does he want to spend that much on his CCB or start saving for a better bass.

BTW -- how did he reattach the top? Hide glue or more Titebond?

Bsatom · #3 02-02-2011, 05:52 AM

I first saw his slab patch when he brought it over to have me glue the back on. I saw the patch, learned of the Titebond, and glued the back on with hide glue that night anyway. As time goes on it sinks in, and I feel more and more insulted. Now if the result is ****** tone, I am suspect. That is eating at me.

Bsatom · #4 02-02-2011, 05:57 AM

I guess I should have typed crappy instead of sheety. No military talk. No sailor talk. OK.

iiipopes · #5 02-02-2011, 06:09 AM

Hang in there. As you say, he has seen some of your other work and liked it, so if the tone sucks, and he comes back, he's more likely to understand it was the improper patch rather than anything you did or refrained from doing under the circumstances.

It is frustrating to be in any service profession, whether luthiery, law, home improvement, auto mechanics, etc., to give proper advice, then see people go out and do the exact opposite, only to come back later to have you "fix" it, sometimes in a situation where it really can't be "fixed," or at least not without a substantial additional expenditure of amount of time and money. Many on this board have been there in a variety of contexts. We understand.

drurb · #6 02-02-2011, 06:59 AM

If I understand correctly, then all you've done so far is to glue the back on after seeing his hack job. Now, he wants you to do more work. Yes? I'm no luthier and, far be it from me to tell you whether you should forgo the income but consider that, given what's happened, this guy might never be happy. He might haunt you and your reputation may be unjustifiably damaged in the process. It sounds like in order to do the job the right way (the way you want to), it would cost the guy far more than the bass is worth. Perhaps it's best to point this out to him, advise that he save the money toward a better bass, and then walk away. Just a thought.

bigolbassguy · #7 02-02-2011, 07:58 AM

Because the back has already been glued on I would finish the job, but explain the situation to him in detail. Have him write "I will always listen to my luthier" 1000 times and sit in a corner wearing a dunce cap (labeled 'titebond') while you do the work.

Cody Sisk · #8 02-02-2011, 08:01 AM

I agree with iiipopes. Give the guy what he wants, just make sure he understands how expensive it will be. The ball is in his court now, you can't save him from his own stupidity..

Cody Sisk · #9 02-02-2011, 08:04 AM

BTW, who are you? Fill out your profile for us if you please..

Cody Sisk · #10 02-02-2011, 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drurb

Perhaps it's best to point this out to him, advise that he save the money toward a better bass, and then walk away. Just a thought.

Les keep in mind that this guy went to two shops with a CCB trying to get the lowest bid for repair. I have seen this kind of customer many times. Logic and reason are not their strong suit. They will not be told that their bass is junk, period.

drurb · #11 02-02-2011, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DallasStrings

Les keep in mind that this guy went to two shops with a CCB trying to get the lowest bid for repair. I have seen this kind of customer many times. Logic and reason are not their strong suit. They will not be told that their bass is junk, period.

I sure do get that the customer is not strong on logic and reason and was trying to offer a path so that the OP wouldn't get hurt. Sounds like your advice is to offer to do the whole job right up front. Well, sure, if the guy wants to pay for all those repairs, then by all means!

I hear you and defer to your expertise and wisdom as you're a real-live luthier!

Michael Case · #12 02-02-2011, 09:19 AM

What I don't get is the fact that the guy did 1 part of the job on his own. How much money did he think he was saving? Why wouldn't he just attempt to finish the work on his own?

If I were a luthier, I would've told him to just glue the back and fit the sound post himself after half assing the sound post "pad."

I'd make a terrible business owner.

Jake deVilliers · #13 02-02-2011, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bsatom

Hi, new here. I want to bounce a situation off you all.

This person asked me to do some repairs on his bass. He has a China lami bass that the back popped off and before that had the bridge placed an inch too far back. Also, the soundpost was too short and set at an angle not supporting the treble foot.
This made a 1.5 inch round depression that stayed about 1/8" deep when tension was removed from the top.

My repair plan was to get a quality soundpost, hide glue a solid spruce filler patch on the top and sand to match the original contour. We agreed that I would also glue the back on with hide glue. Then I was to fit the new straight grained Spruce soundpost correctly and set up a new adjustable bridge.

Well, this guy went to a local violin shop for a second opinion, and was given 1/8" Birch plywood and told to glue in a 3" x 6" slab on the top and back. He did this. This slabs was just slapped on the unprepared surfaces with Titebond glue. The slabs are centered under the treble foot and on the back. He removed the original solid Spruce round soundpost "pads". He did this on his own with no direction from me. I would not have done this in this way.
He now wants me to finish the work as I originally proposed. I think the giant slap patches he did are gawd awful and there is zero point in fitting a quality soundpost anymore. This person has seen my work on a 1951 Kay M-1 and 1992 Herrmann/Gleasel. He has played both of those basses and was absolutely impressed. Now he does this slab patch stunt without my approval, on verbal instruction from someone he has no experience with.Should I touch this bass again? Yay or Nay?

I'm completely comfortable with the phrase "I don't do that kind of work" and use it as necessary. In the end, all I really have is my reputation and it doesn't include 'home handyman' type work on instruments, Chinese or otherwise.

Bsatom · #14 02-02-2011, 11:21 AM

The confusing part is that I consider myself a home handyman style of repairman, because I work at home, and he gets this other advice from a "real" shop. He took the bass home to "sand on the finish" because he wanted a blonde, and did this slab patch after I advised against it and explained in detail why it was not needed or advised. He did this "behind my back" so to speak. I am not a full time luthier, but I am no hack man either. This is NOT what I was going to do.
Is the birch plywood a common repair material for Chinese plywood basses?
I will fill out my profile later when I have more time. Thanks for the request. Thank you all for taking time to share your opinions.

james condino · #15 02-02-2011, 11:37 AM

Walk away from it; there is nothing wrong turning down work or a customer that you are not comfortable with. You've already got enough headaches circling the drain.....

j.

Paul Warburton · #16 02-02-2011, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by james condino

Walk away from it. ; there is nothing wrong turning down work or a customer that you are not comfortable with. You've already got enough headaches circling the drain.....

j.

+1 and talk about "a can of worms."

kosmicwizard · #17 02-02-2011, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bsatom

Hi, new here. I want to bounce a situation off you all.

This person asked me to do some repairs on his bass. He has a China lami bass that the back popped off and before that had the bridge placed an inch too far back. Also, the soundpost was too short and set at an angle not supporting the treble foot.
This made a 1.5 inch round depression that stayed about 1/8" deep when tension was removed from the top.

My repair plan was to get a quality soundpost, hide glue a solid spruce filler patch on the top and sand to match the original contour. We agreed that I would also glue the back on with hide glue. Then I was to fit the new straight grained Spruce soundpost correctly and set up a new adjustable bridge.

Well, this guy went to a local violin shop for a second opinion, and was given 1/8" Birch plywood and told to glue in a 3" x 6" slab on the top and back. He did this. This slabs was just slapped on the unprepared surfaces with Titebond glue. The slabs are centered under the treble foot and on the back. He removed the original solid Spruce round soundpost "pads". He did this on his own with no direction from me. I would not have done this in this way.
He now wants me to finish the work as I originally proposed. I think the giant slap patches he did are gawd awful and there is zero point in fitting a quality soundpost anymore. This person has seen my work on a 1951 Kay M-1 and 1992 Herrmann/Gleasel. He has played both of those basses and was absolutely impressed. Now he does this slab patch stunt without my approval, on verbal instruction from someone he has no experience with.Should I touch this bass again? Yay or Nay?

Nay, unless he is willing to undo what he has done and go with the original plan. You need to let him know that what he did is not cool. If you make a verbal agreement with someone you stick to it. If he wanted a second opinion he should have been upfront about it. Let him know that you are unwilling to try to fix the mistake he has made, but you were willing to fix it right before he went behind your back possible to save a buck. Being a person of integrity is not always easy, heck I agreed on a price for an item here on TB that I thought was fair and then the next day saw the same model for $300 less, I kicked myself but still paid the original guy because I had made an agreement with him. It helps me be a stand up guy to think "people are watching how I behave, how are my actions being perceived by those I interact with?" More people should be like this in the world, IMHO. Cheers.

Cody Sisk · #18 02-02-2011, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by james condino

Walk away from it; there is nothing wrong turning down work or a customer that you are not comfortable with. You've already got enough headaches circling the drain.....

j.

Agreed. Though given this guy's cheap nature, quoting him a rediculous price for fixing the patch job he has now will steer him away anyways. Lesson will have been learned, and he'll have to make tougher decisions on his own. All the while, you've been 100% honest, gave your two cents and maintain your reputation. When he's ready to accept reason and logic and let go of his pride (and his CCB) he'll come to you first..

Bsatom · #19 02-02-2011, 12:51 PM

Yeah, the back is on again, so no removing what he did. I am kicking myself for gluing it on after seeing the giant "tone dampeners" he glued in. I was caught off guard. I should have ended the visit right there. I wonder, should I show him this thread to give him some food for thought, or would that seem like an unprofessional attack on him? I won't show him at this point, unless some of you with more experience thinks otherwise. I will finish my profile this evening. Great forum here. I should have been here already under neutral circumstances instead of reverse gear.

drurb · #20 02-02-2011, 02:30 PM

My vote would be not to show him this thread. Hey, he's a guy that went behind your back to seek opinions. Imagine all that he'd seek here! IMO, better to remain in his eyes the calm expert with integrity and standards. It might also seem like an attack on him, as you said.