perceived tension of strings related to setup?

[shwashwa]

i was wondering what makes the same set of strings feel tight on one bass and loose on another bass. let's even assume that the basses have the same string length. is there a way to adjust this factor?

[Uncletoad]

Originally Posted by shwashwa

i was wondering what makes the same set of strings feel tight on one bass and loose on another bass. let's even assume that the basses have the same string length. is there a way to adjust this factor?

Lots of stuff.

The height of the bridge off the top has a drastic effect on the perceived tension. The angle of the neck in relationship to the top can complicate that. if it's a shallow angle the bridge is lower and the overall tension seems lower. If the angle is steeper the bridge is higher and the overall tension seems higher.

That relationship is also influenced by the tailpiece nut. As the tailpiece nut goes up and away from the top the angle over the back of the bridge is reduced, lowering the perceived tension yet again.

The length of the afterlength of the strings can also have an effect as it is shortened or lengthened. The height at the string nut can make the strings seem like higher tension if it stands away from the fingerboard.

Perceived tension can be effected by the amount of bow or camber in the fingerboard. Lots of bow can be perceived as higher tension unless the bridge height is lowered in response to the greater camber. Conversely a straighter neck can feel less tense unless the bridge height has been increased, then tension seems stiffer.

Even soundpost placement and fit can affect the perception of string tension.

These are complex relationships all interrelated. One effects the other or the setup as a whole. The luthier's job is to balance this set of relationships with the bass and the player in mind.

[toman]

Originally Posted by Uncletoad

Lots of stuff.

The height of the bridge off the top has a drastic effect on the perceived tension. The angle of the neck in relationship to the top can confound that. if it's a shallow angle the bridge is lower and the overall tension seems lower. If the angle is steeper the bridge is higher and the overall tension seems higher.

That relationship is also confounded by the tailpiece nut. As the tailpiece nut goes up and away from the top the angle over the back of the bridge is reduced, lowering the perceived tension yet again.

The length of the afterlength of the strings can also have an effect as it is shortened or lengthened. The height at the string nut can make the strings seem like higher tension if it stands away from the fingerboard.

Perceived tension can be effected by the amount of bow or camber in the fingerboard. Lots of bow can be perceived as higher tension unless the bridge height is lowered in response to the greater camber. Conversely a straighter neck can feel less tense unless the bridge height has been increased, then tension seems stiffer.

Even soundpost placement and fit can affect the perception of string tension.

These are complex relationships all interrelated. One effects the other or the setup as a whole. The luthier's job is to balance this set of relationships with the bass and the player in mind.

Can we pay some math genius to figure this all out for us? Seems to me like the reality of good-sounding-basses is all a matter of physics, and according to the TV shows I watch, there must be some freak of nature who can plug the numbers into a super computer and tell us how to make the ultimate bass!

[shwashwa]

i was just wondering because i have a friend who has a bass with spirocore reds on them and they're soft and easy to play, and i have a bass that feels alittle tight no matter what strings i put, so i wanted to try to loosen it up a little. maybe a raised saddle woud do it? i recently had a new fingerboard (and bridge) put on, a very thick one, so i'm sure the height or the bridge from the top table has increased and therefore the string angle over the bridge has changed. that's probably a good reason to raise the saddle, no?

[Uncletoad]

Originally Posted by toman

Can we pay some math genius to figure this all out for us? Seems to me like the reality of good-sounding-basses is all a matter of physics, and according to the TV shows I watch, there must be some freak of nature who can plug the numbers into a super computer and tell us how to make the ultimate bass!

This is what makes a luthier a special beast. The math is not relevant. The juggling of relationships is complex and subtle. Math can't capture the human element. The more a person messes with all those variables the more they can understand how they relate to each other.

It's a lot more art or left brianed than computational. Thats why just like in playing instruments someone that has a lot of time on the gig has lots of depth to bring to the table.

Remember that next time your old luthier gives you a bill. That's a lot of stuff to keep track of and it takes awhile to learn how it works. A good one is worth it.

[Uncletoad]

Originally Posted by shwashwa

i was just wondering because i have a friend who has a bass with spirocore reds on them and they're soft and easy to play, and i have a bass that feels alittle tight no matter what strings i put, so i wanted to try to loosen it up a little. maybe a raised saddle woud do it? i recently had a new fingerboard (and bridge) put on, a very thick one, so i'm sure the height or the bridge from the top table has increased and therefore the string angle over the bridge has changed. that's probably a good reason to raise the saddle, no?

Maybe. Maybe not.

It's not that simple.

Soundpost? Overstand? Top stiffness? More?

Lots of stuff to consider. More than anyone should not having bass in hand.

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by Uncletoad

...confounded...

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.




Your point, however, is clear. Lots of things make this almost a voodoo subject to a simpleton like me. Once I get a bass setup in a way that feels good, I usually only ever mess with the bridge height in a seasonal way after that. I know a lot of people who adjust their soundposts often, or who make other adjustments in the hope of making the bass feel better. Some get what they were after, but some just seem to be perpetually unhappy with their setups. The man who has a luthier with open ears and a willingness to try things is a lucky man indeed.

[Uncletoad]

Originally Posted by Chris Fitzgerald

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

It's what I meant, I just used it improperly. Bad posting. I should have edited it to be more precise. It's not the right word in the context of the other words. It's not used properly.

con·found
1. to perplex or amaze, esp. by a sudden disturbance or surprise; bewilder; confuse: The complicated directions confounded him.
2.to throw into confusion or disorder: The revolution confounded the people.
3.to throw into increased confusion or disorder.
4.to treat or regard erroneously as identical; mix or associate by mistake: truth confounded with error.
5.to mingle so that the elements cannot be distinguished or separated.


That's what happens before enough coffee. My English is a mess before the first pot.

I really meant to say it's ****ed up but you can't say that on TV or TB.

I'll go back and fix it now...


...there how's that boobie?

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Sorry...Ian watches the "Princess Bride" a couple of times a week, and I have Inigo speaking in my head all the time as a result. I was jes' goofin. Did you really think I was trying to bust your *****? Inconceivable!

[Uncletoad]

Originally Posted by Chris Fitzgerald

Sorry...Ian watches the "Princess Bride" a couple of times a week, and I have Inigo speaking in my head all the time as a result. I was jes' goofin. Did you really think I was trying to bust your *****? Inconceivable!

Nope. Distracted.

I should just work and practice and stop posting nonsense for awhile.

[JoeyNaeger]

Just to add to the discussion. I have found that the tail gut has a noticeable impact on this stiffness that you describe. When I switched to a synthetic one, my bass loosened up noticeably, but was fairly loose prior to that. I think that stiffness you have is probably an inherent quality of the bass, and while you might be able to lessen it, it's always going to be there.

[Jake deVilliers]

"Can we pay some math genius to figure this all out for us?"

Of course you can! Send Arnold a large cheque and a list of your DB requirements.

He's got it figured out very thoroughly according to reports from people I trust.

By the way Phil, that's a pretty good summary of the basic factors - I might crib from it a little....

[Eli_Upright12]

You might try this Marvin Wire Tailpiece
Its worked magic on my bass and a couple other people on the board. Even on my bass with Evah Pirazzis which are very high tension thick strings it managed to make them very play able. It has a lot to do with changing the after length and basically eliminating tailpiece weight.
also you can find his website at www.marvinusa.com