Potential sacrilege for a db neck?

[stz]

Hi everyone. I am not trying to troll here but I figure I'll get a quick disclaimer out of the way because this kind of amateur instrument abuse might not go down quite so well with the professionals who frequent here. I'm mostly happy with my instrument though as a keen do it yourself'r I tend to want to keep trying for the best. This bass is a CCB so don't feel too bad as you read on and please try and avoid just saying "take it to a proper guy jerk"

Bought bass for £80 with hardcase. Sold hardcase for £120. Took bass to local bass guy recommended by closest shop. Paid to have the soundpost fitted and the bridge fitted (£10, very cheap. I expect this was because the bridge didn't need much if any fitting). I've effectively been paid to have this bass at this point.

Took it away. "Let me know how you get along, bring it back if you want adjustments." Couple of months pass. I'm learning the instrument. Wow, I hate this super high action I've got. I hardly ever use the bow. As I'm eventually going to put an adjustable bridge on this thing I'm going to have a go at adjusting this bridge myself, if I screw it up no bit deal. Better action though I did a crappy job, bridge likes to fall in the middle of sets which is no good.

Buy one of Bobs standard adjustable bridges. Take it back to the guy, get him to fit it. Fits it without contour as I play exclusively pizz. Happy with it. Costs me £50 but then he'd also setup a violin for my wife. Again says "let me know, come back if you want it setup slightly different though at this point you'd be better off looking at the nut and neck, though I measured it and the neck is kind of ok, they don't seem to have scooped it much though".

I play it for a while, I'm eventually getting unhappy. I've got plenty of spots on the neck where it buzzes and kills the notes. I like the lower action and the little colouration it gives but glissando is a pain, walking around is a pain because I have to learn my lines to avoid the spots where it will buzz and kill the groove. Raising the action with the adjusters doesn't seem to do much at all here. My action at the nut is very high however.

I take some needle files to the nut. Lower the action to about double the thickness of a credit card at first position. This kills 50% of the buzzing notes and makes the instrument a dream to play. I raise the action at the bridge.

I think about the neck and why some spots will buzz. I figure they must be a little high. I take a sanding block and several different grades of sandpaper to spots on the neck. This kills off maybe all but 4 spots on the neck where it buzzes. This CCB neck is hardwood, the black 'ebonized' paint comes right off. I can see the odd knot in the wood which could be responsible for one of them, but the others? who knows.

I'd love to be able to sort this out. I'm starting to play fairly seriously now, I'm getting sick of having a unreliable instrument. I've learnt to work around the odd spot on the neck it really is annoying me to have to play softly to avoid buzz on what is F# on the E, D and E on the A. These are notes I WANT dammit! I recently did some recording work with it and the engineers stopped a couple of times to say "hey we are getting an odd rattle, here, we're just going to check the positioning and microphones in the room" I knew it was the dodgy F# and I was just thumping it a little too much.

Any ideas? Is taking the neck to an experienced professional to have it planed the only way? I don't want to drop too much money into what could just be a money pit dog of an instrument. As a note I got the instrument so cheap because it was being resold by an importer who'd bought a whole shipment of these from China, and this one was missing a string and needed the soundpost putting up and possibly the bridge fitting. He didn't seem to know anything about the instruments and was selling the pristine polished versions with case for £399.

Recently I've played a student bass which a friend bought which retails for £800. I actually find mine easier to play as my action is lower, though his is non adjustable, setup for arco and doesn't seem to have had a setup. It looks bloody nice though. AND it has a uniform response across the whole fingerboard.

My idea of perfection is something which has been engineered to an exacting standard so it is uniform, accurate and still has good action. It also should be of a good price. I guess I want it all but I'm confused that companies don't seem to have got this one figured out. They can mass produce slabs for next to nothing but double basses all come out as one of a kind requiring a setup.

Ok. TL;DR.

Why is my CCB suffering from spots where notes buzz? Raising the action doesn't help. I've managed to eliminate some but not all by carefully removing some wood with fine sandpaper. It can't be that some spots are too low can it?

[stz]

Oh and though I sure you'll understand what I mean I've found some audio kicking around on here and uploaded it. Sorry about the .wma but I couldn't find an mp3 encoder on this machine.

http://www.box.net/shared/j0zmzgvsw0

[Bob Branstetter]

Unfortunately, this is another example of why CCBs are seldom a real bargain. What you describe is typical of those that I've had come into my shop. The solution, at least in the short term, is a new high quality ebony fingerboard and a proper setup after it is installed. However, the new fingerboard is probably going to cost you as much as you originally paid for the entire bass. If you were one of my customers, I would advise you to start looking for another better quality instrument. Unfortunately, fingerboards are not the only problem associated with these basses.

[stz]

Oh hey I understand where you are coming from. I wish I could afford to buy another instrument at the moment too. I figure this thing is going to always be trouble but I was wondering if there is something I could do to ease it little. Replacing a neck is obviously a bit beyond me! I wouldn't consider getting a shop to do this to that bass either.

I like to at least have instruments pay for themselves at this one has a couple of times. It's even repaid the price of the softcase. I'm a bit put off by the fact that if I did save up and drop close to a thousand on a new bass I'd still be looking at at another £200+ to have it setup. I guess it comes with the territory when playing db but then I played electric for my music degree and I'm used to money going a bit further!

Unrelated but at a gig on newyears a friend was playing a £1,200 bass. He has a £3,500 bass at home which he doesn't use for 'rough' gigs and he's got his eye on a £7k one. Madness (at least for me )

[drurb]

Bob referred to replacing the fingerboard, not the neck. I think that there are just no shortcuts. Unless you really can do professional-grade set-up work yourself, a decent laminate well set up is going to run you at least in the neighborhood of $1500 give or take. It's just not cost-effective to keep servicing a CCB. This is just what the instruments cost.

[Damon Rondeau]

Ahh, my friend, I know your story all too well. Joining the DB club is a bit like joining the yachting society, you know. Nobody really tells you that before you join, but nothing about the instrument is inexpensive, especially with respect to "cheap" basses.

I wish you all the best and I hope you move on to your next bass as quickly as possible. Seriously.

[Silversorcerer]

Not everyone likes the same setup, so even the best builders just put a general "starting point" setup on the instruments that are new and the idea is that you buy from a shop that employs a luthier that can get you what you want or if you buy direct, you go to a fellow like the fellow who has apparently been doing some good work for you. On the slab side, those are instruments of the modern world and depend a great deal on electricity for sound, so sticking adjustment screws here and there, truss rods in the neck, etc. can accomplish a wide range of custom set-ups. A truss rod in a DB neck is next to useless since the fingerboard is not on the neck for a good portion of its' useful length and the neck probably would not respond well to that type of adjustment.

There are some DB bridges made that have individual adjustable string height, and you mention bridge adjusters, which many find helpful. There are also adjustable saddles that allow fine shades of string pressure adjustment. There are even double basses that allow neck pitch angle to be adjusted. Of course any and all of those features or DBs with those features are usually very expensive.

When considering all of the options, the traditional method of "carving" the setup makes a lot of sense. Usually for an experienced player using a pretty fair quality instrument, these pains are infrequent. I haven't done any set-up work since I planed my FB 3 months after I got my DB. That was 2.5 years ago. But in that time all of my slab EBGs needed to have the truss rods tweaked about twice a year.

When you consider a DB, and the instrument "paying for itself", you must have a bit of a longer view of how that happens. A good double bass is better after 50 or even 100 years. So it makes sense to view it as a long term investment, sort of like a house. You maintain it, use it, enjoy it, perhaps it never returns it's initial cost (but most will in a few years, just not in a few gigs) and when you can't play any more and retire, then it pays you back when you pass it along to the next player.

You are just starting out and there is nothing wrong with your approach to getting that start. But if you really want to play a more rewarding instrument, I would encourage you to seek one out, bite the bullet and get a pro set-up. You have certainly learned enough with your current bass to be confident about what you want in a better instrument.

[robobass]

Oh Man, Where to start? When I clicked on your MySpace page, the sounds that began emanating from my laptop made me think that it was seriously distressed, and I actually stepped away, fearing an explosion! Realizing what was going on, I clicked on other tracks and heard some nice violin. So, OK, you are actually a musician, and not some brilliant E-terrorist! As to your problem, musical instruments cost money. Good string instruments especially cost money. Pro players typically pay much upwards of £5,000 for an instrument. Why should you expect to join the game for free? Also, the luthiers who set up basses are skilled craftsmen who also rightly need to be paid, and their contribution is as important as the quality of the instruments themselves. Since you have effectively paid less than nothing for your instrument, it is understandable that you don't want to spend money making it playable, but what are you expecting? In your case, You might try doing a general sanding of your fingerboard yourself, following guidelines from this forum. If that doesn't work, bite the bullet and pay for a proper fingerboard dressing. Replacing the board is probably not an option, as the bass simply wouldn't merit the upgrade. As Bob said, the bass will likely have other problems beside the board.

As far as my tone, I don't mean to diss you, but please consider the point of view of those of us who are walking around with our life savings in a soft bag!
Robobass

[MingusAmongUs]

Your preface, I have to say, was too funny. "take it to a proper guy jerk"

I won't say that. apparently you already have. And you have the right idea -- it doesn't make sense necessarily to throw good money after bad having work done on an instrument that cost you so little. If I were you I'd be experimenting on it too. And if you destroy it, it's no big loss really.

The only thing I would mention is what I just read in a post by Arnold Schnitzer. He says you should just barely be able to slide a business card under the strings at the nut, so if you can get two credit cards under there, it may still be too high, and more filing there could get you a better result.

Also, AS says take a straight edge and place it laterally on the fingerboard where the buzz is (buzzes are?). This will tell you if there are still dips that can be mitigated. Of course, I defer to Bob B and other luthiers here. He is right (and so are you) -- it needs a proper planing at the very least, or more likely, replacement. Softish wood with knots will never give you a clean note.

[Damon Rondeau]

Right on, Silver. In the last decade or so, a great many people have entered the DB club through the door marked "CCB". We certainly don't hear from anybody on this forum who loves their CCB, has been playing it for years, it sounds great arco or pizz, they can't imagine life without their CCB, etc. I can't recall a single post like that.

[MingusAmongUs]

Originally Posted by Damon Rondeau

Right on, Silver. In the last decade or so, a great many people have entered the DB club through the door marked "CCB". We certainly don't hear from anybody on this forum who loves their CCB, has been playing it for years, it sounds great arco or pizz, they can't imagine life without their CCB, etc. I can't recall a single post like that.

I actually have read a few of these. One from a user by the name of Cathead. He's been very happy with his Palatino. But he is certainly the exception. I myself had a CCB that had the bass bar come unglued within a few months. In effect, the bass was "totalled." And I paid about $1000 more for that bass than it was worth. Live and learn.

[Damon Rondeau]

Thanks for refreshing my memory -- I kinda remember that one, now. So there's at least one out there!

[1st Bass]

You know, I think it would be appropriate to point out that there is another way to look at this. If STZ is pleased, overall, with the sound, but wants to deal with the buzzes, without (hopefully) investing more than the instrument in question is worth, then explanations of how to dress a board are what seem to be in order, not rebukes for trying to save his money for the time being.

I drive a car that probably most of you would reject out of hand, just for its looks. And it looked that way when I bought it. I was criticized when I bought it, by a number of acquaintances who had bought new vehicles costing many times what I paid, at about the same time. They have since given up on those (no-longer-new) cars and trucks they bought, while I am still driving the same car, ten years later. It does what I want it to do, is utterly reliable, and still gets 30 mpg after 362,000 miles. They still don't like it, because it is still ugly, but they have quit squawking, as my car was a better deal than theirs were.

I have not seen STZ's bass, but, from what he has told us so far, I would bet that a good dressing of the board, and good set-up would go a long way toward settling the "issues" it is having. Is it worth it? Depends on who is asking. Will it ever be a prize bass? Of course not, but that wasn't the question. When he comes to a point where a great bass is what he needs, AND can afford, then the rest of the issues are worth talking about.

Bob is right, of course; set-up issues won't be the whole story, but if STZ can do the work himself, (and is willing to do so), then he is still learning great stuff, and risking nothing. I'm glad that some have begun to address the real question.

[Damon Rondeau]

Well, when I came to TalkBass I walked through the same door as STZ, with a similar situation (neck and fingerboard issues were just the start) and asking pretty much the same questions. I made the same kind of posts that you just made, except I wasn't so polite, I was a bit angry. Soon after that I got rid of that CCB, but it went to a rockabilly-playing pal and I was his repair lifeline. He managed to beat the thing into pieces on a pretty regular basis. It's been out of my life for a couple of years and, believe me, it's good riddance. My pal gave it an ace paint job, though, and wound up trading it for a damned nice little P.A....

Seriously, if STZ's experience is going to be anything like mine -- playing for the rest of your life, unable to stop playing -- then my best advice is to start thinking about how to get rid of it and get a better one. I don't think I've got an iota of snobbery in there, either. I just think that the really cheap CCB's are a ton of heartache to someone who just wants to play....

[Silversorcerer]

Well, there is some good advice on FB dressing on Jeff Bollbach's site. And if you look through the thread here, there is a lot of good advice also. When you consider the cost of tools (good planes are usually not cheap) that someone may not have, skill using these that really comes from years of practice using woodworking tools, etc., I'm beginning to understand why those that know better here send people to professionals. I'll give it a shot: Look for the high spots. Mark them. Take them down ever so carefully and slowly. Check with a tight string or a long rigid straight edge. Play on it a while. Repeat.

[1st Bass]

Originally Posted by Damon Rondeau

Seriously, if STZ's experience is going to be anything like mine -- playing for the rest of your life, unable to stop playing -- then my best advice is to start thinking about how to get rid of it and get a better one. I don't think I've got an iota of snobbery in there, either. I just think that the really cheap CCB's are a ton of heartache to someone who just wants to play....

Well, I certainly would not accuse you (or anyone here) of snobbery, and I completely agree that the long-range goal is to get a better bass. But the short-range goal is to get the thing running well enough to drive, then sell it for enough to make a downpayment on a decent rig. The recommendations along that line will be very helpful, I think.

But if you drive a running vehicle with an irritating but certainly not dangerous or terminal problem, up to a mechanic who berates you for having bought a Ford (or whatever), and insists that what you need is a different car, I think you might agree that it was not what you needed right then. What you needed was to find whether that irritation could be alleviated. Your Mercedes may still be waiting, somewhere...

When I set out to make a bass, no one here told me to skip it and hire a luthier to do it for me. They supported the decision, and helped me on my way. I have really appreciated that, and am permanently grateful to this group.

[stz]

Thanks everyone! My long range goal is indeed to purchase a better instrument, I am sure it is the same for many people on TB. Please don't assume that I'm trying to polish a CCB into a perfect instrument with just a little 'inside knowledge' and sneak on in without paying the price. I will make a purchase when I can afford it, I promise TB! All I am after now is a way to improve what I've got. I take this thing busking 2-3 times a week, being able to use the E on the A string would make my life ever so much easier. Also when I finally do decide to get rid of this thing, if I'm honest I'll have a hard time selling it as anything other than an ornament

I was thinking along the lines of what EB'ists do when they turn a fretted instrument into a frettless. Well, not all of them but some coat the fingerboard in several coats of clear lacquer. Bad idea? I think it may be a bad idea because I'm imagining a sticky horrible playing surface. Maybe not.

When I did the first lot of sanding I took a little off. Tuned up, played, took a little more off, tuned up, played. etc etc etc. What I am confused by is that if there was a high spot on the neck, then wouldn't any note fretted below that point rattle? as it is it is only a few exact precise spots here and there, less than a fingertip in size. This has made me think that maybe these spots are actually too low compared to the rest of the fingerboard and that is my problem. Just an idea anyway. I was interested to see if this is a possibility or just plain old crazy talk.

I've had a read of Jeff B's site before, the rant about cheap fingerboards. Can't find any setup information on there though. I'm honestly tempted to take a little more off the nut and give the fingerboard a little bit of a rub down tonight, trial and error hey? Ah it is all fun and games until the thing explodes.

[stz]

Ok. I took a whole bunch of the nut, I thought it would be too much but it is just fine. I took a bit off the fingerboard and concentrated on the problem areas. I tried out the colour in with a pencil trick then sand to see where the dips are and there is a slight one near the E but it isn't where the problem is and it isn't even where the string sits when fretted.

I couldn't really kill the buzz on the damn F# and E though. Still there. I was able to get really low action near the nut and I did lower the bridge adjusters back down super super low. It plays pretty good.

I cheated a little. I moved the bridge about 1mm towards the tail piece changing the intonation and meaning that the E on the A is playable. The buzz is a little before that now on a note that isn't used. Just no gliss on the super useful A string

[Alex Scott]

Careful, I always take past the point of no return when I work on my instruments. In hindsight, I would have been better off selling and buying something else.

[fdeck]

Originally Posted by stz

Bought bass for £80 with hardcase. Sold hardcase for £120.

In other words, a negative price for a bass. Finally someone who paid less than me!