Proper neck/fingerboard bond essential for correct neck curvature?

[GriffithLea]

This question actually occurred to me while changing strings on a cello, but surely the idea is also applicable to DB's, violas, etc.

Last night, one of the cellists in a group I play with came over so that I could help her change the strings on her cello. She wasn't confident that she could do it properly, and I'd offered to help.

While I was changing the strings, I noticed that her fingerboard was quite loose down where the neck joins the body. I didn't want to wiggle it around too much and make it worse, but it seemed to only be attached to the upper part (half? third?) of the neck.

On top of that, while bringing the strings up to pitch, I felt like the amount of turn I was giving the pegs wasn't raising the pitch as quickly as I would expect.

On top of that, she had mentioned that the strings had recently migrated to a higher position off of the fingerboard compared to their height for many years previous.

Am I right in thinking that this is all related? I would think that the neck and the fingerboard need to be properly glued together, otherwise the neck will have to "lean" forward more since the part of the fingerboard not attached to the neck cannot lend its stiffness to the overall package.

I recommended that she get the instrument down to Philip Gold ASAP, which she intends to do as soon as she gets done playing all the Christmas jobs.

[toman]

That sounds scary. If that was my instrument, I'd be taking the tension down and heading to my luthier, not hauling it around to a bunch of Christmas gigs. Seems a lot more practical to borrow or even rent another instrument than pay for a neck graft right after the holidays...

[GriffithLea]

Originally Posted by toman

That sounds scary. If that was my instrument, I'd be taking the tension down and heading to my luthier, not hauling it around to a bunch of Christmas gigs. Seems a lot more practical to borrow or even rent another instrument than pay for a neck graft right after the holidays...

Agreed, but to her credit it isn't that she doesn't care - it's just going to take some time for my idea to sink in, that the loose fingerboard is contributing to the extra flex in the neck.

At least now she's going to take it in sometime soon, whereas before she wasn't too bothered by the loose fingerboard (amazingly, it's not rattling) and had no immediate plans to have it addressed.

If it makes you feel any better, the strings that went on (Dominants) are probably lower tension than what came off (Thomastik Precision, I think).

[robobass]

Lets just hope that your friend doesn't end up with a big scar on her top when the board falls off in the middle of a "Messiah" job. Let me repeat what I have said before. Bill Merchant told me that the glue joint between the neck and board is what keeps the neck from bending under the string tension. Makes sense. We were talking about improper glues, not joints that had actually come loose, but the result is the same. If you let a bad glue joint go you will experience a gradual increase in string height and maybe board scoop.

Let me hypothesize that if you keep such an instrument in tension, The money you will end up spending to correct the problem will be much greater than a linear function of the time you spent not dealing with the problem.

And, I propose a question; Which group is worse about continuing to play their instruments even though they need critical work. Bassists or Cellists?

Robobass

[bribass]

Originally Posted by GriffithLea

This I noticed that her fingerboard was quite loose down where the neck joins the body. I didn't want to wiggle it around too much and make it worse, but it seemed to only be attached to the upper part (half? third?) of the neck.

On top of that, she had mentioned that the strings had recently migrated to a higher position off of the fingerboard compared to their height for many years previous.
I would think that the neck and the fingerboard need to be properly glued together, otherwise the neck will have to "lean" forward more since the part of the fingerboard not attached to the neck cannot lend its stiffness to the overall package.

This has happeened w/ my early 20th cent. german bass. See thread:
Beach neck and Ebony fingerboard separation

But it was the upper part of the board that was coming loose and the neck was bowing forward a bit complete w/ scooped middle of the board, elevated string height & all. Loss of tone and sustain as well. I was chalking this up to the kinda of soft beach wood neck on this bass which never felt great during humid NYC area summers, but it had gotten worse. Then I noticed a sliver of daylight at the neck/board joint around 1st position. Yes, a loose fingerboard can sure ruin your day, tone, boardshape AND susutain on a DB.

BG

[arnoldschnitzer]

Originally Posted by bribass

Yes, a loose fingerboard can sure ruin your day, tone, boardshape AND susutain on a DB.
BG

Can you say "TEN-DO-NI-TIS"?

[GriffithLea]

Originally Posted by robobass

Lets just hope that your friend doesn't end up with a big scar on her top when the board falls off in the middle of a "Messiah" job. Let me repeat what I have said before. Bill Merchant told me that the glue joint between the neck and board is what keeps the neck from bending under the string tension. Makes sense. We were talking about improper glues, not joints that had actually come loose, but the result is the same. If you let a bad glue joint go you will experience a gradual increase in string height and maybe board scoop.

OK, that confirms what I was thinking. I've just sent her a note to let her know that my hypothesis was correct. Hopefully, it will help minimize the time elapsed before the instrument gets to see a luthier.

Originally Posted by robobass

Let me hypothesize that if you keep such an instrument in tension, The money you will end up spending to correct the problem will be much greater than a linear function of the time you spent not dealing with the problem.

Agreed. If it were my instrument, upon discovery of the loose fingerboard I would have dropped tension and gotten it to Philip Gold's, especially knowing what I know now. However, it isn't my instrument and all I can do is point out the problem to her and tell her what I think.

Although I suppose I could kidnap the cello, like in that Seinfeld episode where the auto mechanic kidnaps Jerry's car.

Seriously, I don't doubt that she will take it in, and soon. She just needs a little time to get her mind wrapped around the idea that the fingerboard is a structural item.

Originally Posted by robobass

And, I propose a question; Which group is worse about continuing to play their instruments even though they need critical work. Bassists or Cellists?

I'd imagine that bassists are probably the most sensitive to structural issues with their instruments, due to the 300 or so pounds pulling down on the pegbox!

[GriffithLea]

Originally Posted by bribass

This has happeened w/ my early 20th cent. german bass. See thread:
Beach neck and Ebony fingerboard separation

It was that thread, which I had read sometime in the past, that I think helped me connect the dots the other night, i.e. realize that her aforementioned problem with the rising strings was caused by the loose fingerboard.