Question about action on an upright.

[deadhead]

Hey so I've just bought my first upright from Lemur music in California. I've been playing for a few years, but it has always been a school bass.

The action they have in the house setup is lower on the higher strings, and higher on the lower pitched strings (G being the lowest and E being the highest obviously). I've given it about a month to see if I could get used to it but the setup still bugs me. I feel like the G is just too low and flimsy and that the E is too high off, I would much rather have them equal.

The guy at the shop will do a bridge reajustment for free, if I wanted him too. So I wanted to ask, why is this action configuration a common one (I have had teacher's that have had it), and would my preference of equal action have a negative influence on the tone?

[Marty Forrer]

My action, measured at the end of the fingerboard, is:
G = 6mm
D = 7mm
A = 8mm
E = 9mm

This suits me just fine, but may not suit you. There is no "correct" string height formula, but my advice would be to get some more experience under your fingers before going to an oddball setting. You could always have a adjustable bridge fitted, then you can muck around to your heart's content.

[standupbassman]

If it bugs you and Lemur will set it up for free then there's very little reason not to. However, that is a fairly standard way to set up a bass. The higher action on the E string gives it more clarity. The best advice I can give you is to go try as many basses as you can and find the one you like the best. You could try getting yours set up similar to that one. However, the people at Lemur aren't stupid and probably set it up so that it is playable and still sounds good.

[iiipopes]

Do you have an adjustible bridge? If so, raise the G string side and lower the E string side a tad to see if you still like your previous setup as much as you once did. If so, take it to a qualified luthier to recontour the bridge so the adjusters can be reset to the same height.

But with the larger string excursion of the E string, it has been set up with a purpose. Don't change too much at once, as that might entail a rebeveling of the fingerboard to accomodate your prior setup.

But then again, we're all different. If a particular setup is what you prefer, go for it!

[forester]

the increase in the string height through the arc is standard practice on bass,cello,viola and violin. you might just have to dial the set-up in closer, to suit your needs.

[tstone]

Try this: Play an open string on your bass as loud as possible and observe the envelope described by the vibrating string at about mid-length. Repeat for each string. You'll note that the envelope described by the low E is larger than that described by the A, which is larger than that described by the D, etc.

For ease of playing, the height of each string is normally set as low as possible, but not so low that the string buzzes against the fingerboard when playing fortissimo. Since the envelope described by the vibrating E string at maximum loudness is much larger than that of the G, it follows that the E string is going to be the highest off the fingerboard, the G the lowest.

If you choose to have all the string heights the same, they're all going to have to be as high as the E, which is going to make the higher strings more uncomfortable to play.

[funkybassinator]

just a little side note: some guys get huffy when you refer to action on an upright as "action." The correct term for the dark side is "string height." Just FYI.

[downunder]

I met Ron Carter once and asked him about string height on his bass. He told me he has all four strings the same - just high enough for a #2 pencil to fit between the string and the end of the fingerboard.

I think one reason the lower pitched strings are usually set higher is that they "travel" more when vibrating. By this I mean the side-to-side movement of the string. They are therefore set higher so they don't strike the end of the fingerboard and cause a rattle. I think.

[Phil Rowan]

Correct. On a set of steel or hybrid strings (perhaps guts too), the string's tension generally goes from lowest on the E to highest on the G.

[iiipopes]

That may be with gut or synthetic core strings. On a lot of steels, for example TI, which publishes their string tensions, the E string on most Spiro sets has more tension than the G string. So it's like everything else: the string action needs to be set to accommodate the bass, the strings, the player and the repertoire, after playing for awhile. No pre-set can perfectly address a situation, and over time a player's situation will change, necessitating a different setup.

[Don Higdon]

Originally Posted by downunder

I met Ron Carter once and asked him about string height on his bass. He told me he has all four strings the same - just high enough for a #2 pencil to fit between the string and the end of the fingerboard.

That's hard to reconcile with my experience. A long time ago, I sat in on Carter's bass and the string heights were conventional, i.e., lowest on the G, highest on the E.

[JtheJazzMan]

Originally Posted by deadhead

Hey so I've just bought my first upright from Lemur music in California. I've been playing for a few years, but it has always been a school bass.

The action they have in the house setup is lower on the higher strings, and higher on the lower pitched strings (G being the lowest and E being the highest obviously). I've given it about a month to see if I could get used to it but the setup still bugs me. I feel like the G is just too low and flimsy and that the E is too high off, I would much rather have them equal.

The guy at the shop will do a bridge reajustment for free, if I wanted him too. So I wanted to ask, why is this action configuration a common one (I have had teacher's that have had it), and would my preference of equal action have a negative influence on the tone?

Is bowing clearance going to be a consideration as well?

[Don Higdon]

Originally Posted by Phil Rowan

Correct. On a set of steel or hybrid strings (perhaps guts too), the string's tension generally goes from lowest on the E to highest on the G.

It depends on the manufacturer. Thomastik and D'Addario increase tension going from G to E. Pirastro does the reverse, increasing tension going from E to G. The difference between highest and lowest is slight with Pirastro and significant with Thomastik and D'Addario.
Interestingly, when I first asked T-I and Pirastro what the tensions were for particular sets, both responded with only the aggregate tension of the entire 4 string set.

[Phil Rowan]

Originally Posted by Phil Rowan

Correct. On a set of steel or hybrid strings (perhaps guts too), the string's tension generally goes from lowest on the E to highest on the G.

Sorry if I implied that there are no exceptions from this pattern.

[iiipopes]

You don't have to email TI. They have a pdf on their website listing the tensions of all of their strings:
http://www.thomastik-infeld.com/uplo...03_07print.pdf

And flexibility and feel of a string can be completely different from the tension. Take a string that has a rope core, and narrow tape windings, and it will feel completely different from a string of a similar diameter and tension that has a solid core, or a core with less filaments, and a wide ribbon winding.

[Phil Rowan]

Alright, I'm outta here for a while. Be good, ya'll!

[robobass]

Originally Posted by iiipopes

Do you have an adjustible bridge? If so, raise the G string side and lower the E string side a tad to see if you still like your previous setup as much as you once did. ...

Umm I'm not sure this is good advice for a newbie. I bet that when veteran luthiers get together for beers, some of their funniest stories involve adjustments done at home by inexperienced first time owners. If you're going to do it, at least have your teacher present!

[iiipopes]

Originally Posted by robobass

Umm I'm not sure this is good advice for a newbie. I bet that when veteran luthiers get together for beers, some of their funniest stories involve adjustments done at home by inexperienced first time owners. If you're going to do it, at least have your teacher present!

Maybe. But I'm sure you will agree everyone should learn how to do some maintenance and adjustments on their basses at some point. Although the point is well taken that a person who has not made adjustments to his/her own instrument before might want a teacher or luthier to oversee the process to teach them correctly how to do that.

The OP does say he has been playing a few years, so he is probably farther along with an understanding of the mechanics of the instrument. Hence my initial post.

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by iiipopes

Do you have an adjustible bridge? If so, raise the G string side and lower the E string side a tad to see if you still like your previous setup as much as you once did.

Actually, since string height as relates to adjuster wheels is actually a function of relation to the arc of the fingerboard, what you suggest will only make the imbalance greater: raising the G adjuster wheel will move the strings over slightly to the bass side, which will make the G feel lower and the E higher, since the g will be moving closer to an "uphill" slope and the E farther from a "downhill" slope.

As an experiment, *if* the OP has adjuster wheels, he might instead try either lowering the G wheel or raising the E wheel by 1 turn or less (an imbalance of more than this can be dangerous to the integrity of the bridge feet and/or bridge legs where the screws go in). If this yields something more like the desired result, then I would have the bridge cut with those string heights in mind when the wheels are equally adjusted.

[drurb]

Chris is quite right. Both effects come into play. That is, shifting over against the arc and change in absolute height. It's not wise at all to try to effect modifications in relative string heights by imbalancing the adjusters. In addition to the effects already mentioned, there are the stresses it can put on the threads as well as the changed tension on the top. Sure, fractions of a turn are not likely to be detrimental but neither are they likely to produce substantial changes in the relative heights. It's best to do it the right way.