Question about Traeger book -- teflon on the bridgefeet.

[iPlay15151515]

Originally Posted by Silversorcerer

.........

I did find that Teflon is used in printed circuit boards because of its "superior high frequency characteristics", whatever that means and is also used in hearing restoration surgery for prosthetic stapes (hearing bones) implants. I seriously doubt that CT considered this when he chose Teflon. My guess is that he could easily find it in thin, flexible, form and that when tested for his purposes it worked. These days it would be easier to get hold of than sheepskin parchment.

The use of Teflon in printed circuit boards is due to its dielectric/insulation properties. It helps to reduce some of the capacitive coupling between the metallic traces on different layers.

[jtlownds]

[quote=Silversorcerer]It sounds like you are joking and I hope you are.

My post was intended as a good natured, tongue-in-cheek, chain yanking. I did not intend to scold anyone. My apologies to anyone I may have offended. I have read with interest (maybe amusement is a better word) some of the exerps from Traeger's book that were posted here. The self conflicting piece on sound posts, and now teflon on the bridge feet. I have played DB for over 49 years and in that time found that bass players and guitar players (I'm one of those, too) have an obsession with attaining the perfect sound. There are plenty of luthiers out there (particularly in the guitar world) that employ smoke and mirrors to hawk their wares. As a retired software developer, I think I understand the concept of thinking outside the box, but teflon on the bridge feet is so far outside the box, that it smacks of smoke and mirrors to me. I haven't read Traeger's book, and I may well be wrong. I'm looking forward to one of you guys trying the teflon and reporting the results. Personally I think that the room you are playing in will affect the sound of your bass more than the teflon will.

[nicklloyd]

...popcorn anyone?

[John Sprague]

Since achieving a perfect fit between the bridge feet and bass top would seem to be almost impossible

Ahhh, and therein lies the art of the luthier. I'm betting that Mr. Traeger's idea wasn't to band-aid, so to speak, an improperly fit bridge. I hope that didn't sound snooty, just an observation.

[iPlay15151515]

John ---

My use of the word perfect in this context was leaning toward a fit at the molecular level. Now I know you guys are good but .......

I have a CCB complete with CCB sound quality and the Teflon tape, but do I have the will to give it a go?

Why not. I'll try it first thing tomorrow when my ears and mind are fresh.

[Silversorcerer]

[quote=jtlownds]

Originally Posted by Silversorcerer

It sounds like you are joking and I hope you are.

My post was intended as a good natured, tongue-in-cheek, chain yanking. I did not intend to scold anyone. My apologies to anyone I may have offended. I have read with interest (maybe amusement is a better word) some of the exerps from Traeger's book that were posted here. The self conflicting piece on sound posts, and now teflon on the bridge feet. I have played DB for over 49 years and in that time found that bass players and guitar players (I'm one of those, too) have an obsession with attaining the perfect sound. There are plenty of luthiers out there (particularly in the guitar world) that employ smoke and mirrors to hawk their wares. As a retired software developer, I think I understand the concept of thinking outside the box, but teflon on the bridge feet is so far outside the box, that it smacks of smoke and mirrors to me. I haven't read Traeger's book, and I may well be wrong. I'm looking forward to one of you guys trying the teflon and reporting the results. Personally I think that the room you are playing in will affect the sound of your bass more than the teflon will.

I wasn't offended, I was just hoping you weren't going to do that and also that anyone reading it wouldn't either. Traeger is hardly outside of the box on anything to my thinking. Most of his methodology, or at least what he puts in the book is pretty common sense and practical. This is one of a few unusal practices for "not every bass". He says that to start with. Other things apply to all basses. He's very careful to make distinctions. As for the room affecting the sound more, it's not a question of more. It's a question of what happens first. In this case the vibrations pass through the teflon first, before the resonance of the room (which is different room to room) affects the sound. On a practical note, I have not had the advantage of taking a "good sounding" room with me to a gig. Maybe your gigs are different.

I think if you read Traegers suggestions in total you would not find them conflicting, nor particularly unusual. It is easy to create apparent discrepancies in out of context quotes. Politicians do it all the time. I hope we aren't reduced to that. As far as bridge fitting, I don't think his method conflicts with what the luthiers posting here suggest. The "teflon trick", if you will, was preceded historically by the "parchment trick" before teflon was available, and before Traeger was born.

If you think it is all smoke and mirrors, I guess you could benefit from ignoring these posts;- that function is available. Then those of us of the inquisitive ilk could discuss this without the threads being hijacked with unsubstantiated statements. Just saying that you seriously doubt it without substantiation is a waste of space. If you really want to contribute, do some testing and bring your results.

Don't you have some scales that need practicing anyway? Don't be offended. I'm just jerking your chain, good-naturedly of course.

[arnoldschnitzer]

I once strung up a new bass and put some clear package tape on the bridge feet to protect the new varnish. Worked great, then I got the call from the owner...the bridge had slid out from its position, fallen over, damaged the varnish, dropped the soundpost, and the tailpiece scratched the top. Just a warning to those of you running out to get teflon tape for your basses. BTW, I once needed to quickly raise the strings on a cheapo bass, and stuck some 1/8" cork under the feet. Though I may have fallen pray to psycho-acoustics, both the player and I felt the bass had darkened slightly. I think anything you put between the bridge and top will act as a filter of some sort.

[Damon Rondeau]

Finally, the authoritative voice of experience!

Nobody's said much about it so far, but the biggest thing about Teflon to me is its slipperiness.

[Steve Killingsworth]

Originally Posted by arnoldschnitzer

...the bridge had slid out from its position...

I had really wondered about this since one of teflon's main purposes is to lower friction.

[Matthew Tucker]

In a plumbing/gassfitting context teflon tape is used for its gap-filling properties.

I have an experimental temperament - I'll try that!

[Brent Norton]

You can also try spraying a liberal coat of PAM on the top of the bass before fitting the bridge.

[iPlay15151515]

Gentlemen and Lady:

I know the excitement level has been building at a frantic pace over the "Teflon Factor", so I won't keep you in suspense any longer.

This morning around 10:00 EDT, after careful planning and preparation of the scientific method (5 min. while having my first cup of coffee) and meticulous cleaning of the highly controlled testing environment (I put the dishes in the dishwasher) the test began.

The position of the bridge feet was located and marked with masking tape. The Teflon tape was carefully unrolled from the plumber pack and cut to precise lengths.

After giving my CCB the proper reassurances that she would not be harmed, I carefully laid her on her back on a throw rug in the lab I mean kitchen floor.

The tension was so thick you could cut it with a knife as I began to slowly loosen her g-string. I heard a soft whimper from deep within as the string slowly began to fall away. Oh, sorry, I'm getting my stories confused. That happens when you get older.

Anyway, I released the tension on all the strings, dropped the bridge, placed the tape on the top, relocated the bridge, and re-tensioned the strings.

As I was re-tensioning the string, I watched for any movement or spreading of the bridge feet and did not detect any as indicated by the marks on the masking tape. I didn't use a dial caliper to measure the bridge feet.

After completing the required 1 hr. Supernill retuning process, the sound test began. Using my highly trained ear (about six months of playing bass) and my rosin-less plucker (I don't own a bow) each string was carefully pulled and allowed to roll off the side of the rosin-less plucker in a very controlled and precise manner.

The results were absolutely amazing. I'm certain that everyone reading this is familiar with the unmistakable sound of a CCB so I'll skip that description and get right to the point. The transformation was so astonishing that I had to stop playing and drink another cup of coffee.

Oh the miracles of modern science. Why has the Teflon secret been kept under wraps for all these years? With the simple application of just 2 pieces of Teflon tape, that unmistakable CCB sound was immediately transformed to the clear and soft sound of an older ECCB. The difference was so astonishing that my finger is still trembling as I'm typing this post.

As I said earlier, these results are preliminary, and the final test results will be posted later. Now I'm off the the violin shop to get some rosin to use for the rosin coated plucker portion of the test.

[Silversorcerer]

Originally Posted by Damon Rondeau

Finally, the authoritative voice of experience!

Nobody's said much about it so far, but the biggest thing about Teflon to me is its slipperiness.

As slippery as it is, if parchment or thin cork has a similar effect, or even taking the edge off the bridge feet, which was suggested by C. Hutchins, it is probably some other property of Teflon, perhaps shared by many materials. Arnold is probably right, as his intuition is well honed. In light of his experience, why not try cork if you try anything? With a sharp razor it could be shaved off pretty thin. My luthier teacher, a student of R. Lundberg, confirms that parchment was used between gamba tops and bridges long ago. It is more recently (last few centuries) that it has been out of practice and some authentic gamba makers still use parchment.

As far as the bridge feet slipping out from under the strings: The tendency of this to happen would have to do with the string angle before the bridge not being equal to the string angle after the bridge, or the shape of the bridge not being able to counter the uneven component forces. The bridge is usually perpendicular on the tailpiece side and sloped away from the fingerboard. This shape is supposed to be resistant to the unbalanced forces. If the difference is extreme, like on basses with higher overstand, it may not be sufficient to balance the push. Also the taller the bridge, the more leverage the unbalanced component will have on the bridge. I'm not saying Teflon wouldn't make such a mishap more likely, but it would really be a function of how these two angles interact with the shape of the bridge:- it won't just fall over by itself, there has to be a force acting on it (Newton's Laws). For a drawing illustrating this, see my post under strings, string science. I didn't start that thread, but I put some explanatory info there that applies here. For the sake of brevity (ha, ha), I won't repeat myself entirely.

[Damon Rondeau]

ONE TO FIVE, I can't tell if your tongue's in your cheek or not. You do feel it made a positive difference?

As for teflon, parchment, cork, rounded feet etc., I'd suggest the common thread is a softer connection between feet and top (not necessarily a sloppier connection.) If that is indeed the true causal agent behind this hypothetical effect, then teflon is just a modern version of parchment.

Bridges pull forward from string tension. Players give bridges ye olde karate chop to get bridges back in position. I think that's when the player might regret the teflon...

[iPlay15151515]

I'm sorry to report that the final results of the Titillating Teflon Tone Twisting Tape Test will be delayed due to an interesting turn of events that occurred while I was out shopping for some pleasingly pliable plucker rosin.

I ran into my plumber at Starbucks, and we had an intellectually stimulating conversation about the polymerization and molecular bonding properties of Teflon over a latte. He made me aware of another common version of Teflon tape that is yellow in color and used to insure tight connections on natural gas and propane applications.

Since there is always a Home Depot across from most violin shops, I was able to purchase the pleasingly pliable plucker rosin and the yellow tinted Teflon Tone Twisting Tape without taking out another loan to purchase fuel.

However, with the introduction of this thicker and less tractable, Teflon tape, a new set of tests must be devised which will require brewing more coffee.

I've been saving a box of Peter Vella Chablis for a special occasion like this, so a late afternoon tasting party may be in order to triumph the terminus of the titillating Teflon tone twisting tape test.

The final results will be posted as soon as they are available.

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by iPlay15151515

Gentlemen and Lady:

That was no lady, that was....wait...what lady?

[jtlownds]

[quote=Silversorcerer]
I think if you read Traegers suggestions in total you would not find them conflicting, nor particularly unusual. It is easy to create apparent discrepancies in out of context quotes. Politicians do it all the time. I hope we aren't reduced to that. As far as bridge fitting, I don't think his method conflicts with what the luthiers posting here suggest. The "teflon trick", if you will, was preceded historically by the "parchment trick" before teflon was available, and before Traeger was born.

You are correct. I haven't read Traeger's book, so the exerpts that I am reading are indeed being taken out of context. I am also a former 2 term mayor, so possibly some of my misspent past is coming back to haunt me. I think that I may have agravated enough bass players to qualify as a drummer now. I'll try to dig up some gigs with the sticks.

On a serious note: I had never heard of the parchment thing before this post. I may be old, but I wasn't around when they were doing this. Is it possible that this was done in an attempt to protect the finish of new instruments? Does anyone have any information on this practice?

[jtlownds]

Originally Posted by iPlay15151515

Gentlemen and Lady:

I know the excitement level has been building at a frantic pace over the "Teflon Factor", so I won't keep you in suspense any longer.

Let me be the first to say that I like your approach to science. Putting the dishes in the dishwasher was a nice touch. One word of caution is in order, however. I hope that you didn't play around with the tailpiece too much. Excitement has been known to raise the decibel rating by a few numbers. I am waiting with baited breath ( I have worms in my mouth ) for the results with a fully rosined plunker. And stay away from the tailpiece.

[iPlay15151515]

Originally Posted by jtlownds

...... I hope that you didn't play around with the tailpiece too much. Excitement has been known to raise the decibel rating by a few numbers. I am waiting with baited breath ( I have worms in my mouth ) for the results with a fully rosined plunker. And stay away from the tailpiece.

I have already said way too much about the resonant properties of a certain tailpiece in another recent post, so I am carefully avoiding this area for the moment.


.

[Damon Rondeau]

It was one of the best lines I'd ever seen on TB, too... I larfed and larfed.