Re-varnish?

[johnfowles]

Hi all,
I've got an 1880 german double bass that's gone through restoration etc. It's not had much done cosmetically, I'm going to ask my luthier about what can be done, but I thought i'd ask you guys first.

The lacquer or varnish is uneven in areas that have been reglued etc. Is it possible to strip the whole bass and re-apply?

Cheers,
John

[bassist14]

Originally Posted by johnfowles

Hi all,
I've got an 1880 german double bass that's gone through restoration etc. It's not had much done cosmetically, I'm going to ask my luthier about what can be done, but I thought i'd ask you guys first.

The lacquer or varnish is uneven in areas that have been reglued etc. Is it possible to strip the whole bass and re-apply?

Cheers,
John

hi john
of course its possible, but the bass would loose up to 50% of it´s value

[Uncletoad]

Originally Posted by johnfowles

Hi all,
I've got an 1880 german double bass that's gone through restoration etc. It's not had much done cosmetically, I'm going to ask my luthier about what can be done, but I thought i'd ask you guys first.

The lacquer or varnish is uneven in areas that have been reglued etc. Is it possible to strip the whole bass and re-apply?

Cheers,
John

It is possible, expensive and very unwise. A proper french polish by a skilled person is the most I'd ever suggest.

There is much controversy about revarnishing. Those that recommend it are highly criticized by those that oppose it. Resale values WILL be reduced by stripping and revarnishing under most circumstances.

A skilled restorationist will know what to do.

[Eli_Upright12]

Originally Posted by Uncletoad

A skilled restorationist will know what to do.

Yeah, might be a good idea to contact guys like; Ken Smith, Arnold Schnitzer, Barrie Kolstein, Jeff Bollbach, along with any of the other very knowledgeable luthiers that use the forums here.

[Jeremy Darrow]

I'll second what Phil said, French polish only if it really needs it. Most people, myself included, prefer old basses to look old. If you choose to re-varnish, you will lose character, value and maybe tone.

I have made it a personal policy to run screaming from any "luthier" who suggests to me that one of my instruments could be improved by refinishing.

Jeremy

[Eric Hochberg]

Touch-up is the word. A well done job can work wonders. I bought a great sounding old bass a few years ago, totally beat looking with some real amateur finish work. When my wife saw it she told me if I brought it on a gig, I'd never get hired again. Scott Henrie did an amazing job with color and didn't remove original old finish. The bass still looks old but is now perfectly presentable when I'm in my tux and the clients have their noses pointed north.

To me there is just something wrong about an old bass with a perfect, new finish.

[johnfowles]

Thanks for all your comments guys. I thought it'd be a dodgy subject as my luthier kind of ignored me when I mentioned it before. I may get her to just do some touch up work on the bad areas. Removing lumps of glue etc.

I'm getting a bass built at the Contrabass Shoppe (UK), so that can be my new-looking bass.

Cheers,
John

[Uncletoad]

Originally Posted by johnfowles

Thanks for all your comments guys. I thought it'd be a dodgy subject as my luthier kind of ignored me when I mentioned it before. I may get her to just do some touch up work on the bad areas. Removing lumps of glue etc.

I'm getting a bass built at the Contrabass Shoppe (UK), so that can be my new-looking bass.

Cheers,
John

Yes, touch up work in addition to a fine French Polish will make most ancient patina's shine and be very presentable.

[MrSidecar]

Hey everyone.

I´m forced to oppose.

While it is certainly right that you lose resale value when revarnishing, (my thoughts on that later), the effects on the pure acoustic side can be quite positive. That is, if the new finish is done well and not worse than the old one.

I experienced that on several basses, one of them was my own (O. Rubner). My one was a special case as it looked like shite, quite frankly, and the finish was also not consistent- maybe they didn´t have enough of one kind since it was directly after the war, maybe someone else before me did a horrible job on the sides, but there were 3 different varnishes on it. Stiff, thick, Rubneresque layers of dark-orange weirdness. Sounded ok, though.

As I had no intention of reselling the instrument due to emotional reasons not to be discussed here, I took the chance and had it made. That is, I unvarnished it myself, brave young gunslinger that I was. New finish was done together with (and mostly by) a luthier I admire.

I have to point out that after all I had checked out with luthiers I know well, basses often sound best unvarnished. So I was not surprised that the new finish opened up the sound of the bass quite a deal (even though a) it´s not easy to tell with 3 weeks between trials of the old and new varnish, and b) whatever "open up" definately means). It certainly had a character I liked loads better than before. I know of one other guy who did it to his Rubner and experienced the same.

So, it CAN go well. But who knows if it does. My take:

If it´s a valuable instrument (1730, Italy, for example): Don´t. By no means.
If it looks appalling and sounds ok, but is not a special instrument: Consider. Carefully.

Now, the controversial matter of "resale value". The value of a bass (the same goes for violins, cellos, and violas) is determined rather strange, in my opinion and to my experience. Almost every luthier I ever saw evaluate an instrument (I hope there are others out there) did so WITHOUT PLAYING A SINGLE NOTE. Now, while they checked on important things like past repairs and their quality (and the severity of the damages), the most important thing for those folks is "originality". But guess what: NO old bass (like, 1800 or before) is original, not a single one! Because all the basses played today are built or (in case they are old) rebuilt to the modern neck angle, whereas the neck angle was much flatter in past times. What if it was in its birthtime a 3-string bass and is now a 4 string bass, because not even the strangest originalityfreakcreatures play their jazz gigs on 3 strings? Not original... So what?

IMHO, a bass is not a piece of ancient furniture, at least to me it isn´t. I am solely after the practical value, because it´s my tool as a pro bassist (as in "earning a living playing bass"). So why would I give a rat´s *** for an evaluation that is done with essentially the same viewpoint as it would be done for a Louis XIV-chair that stays behind glass to be looked at? If the sound rocks, that´s what counts.

Yours

Sidecar

[David Potts]

I agree with you, Mr Sidecar.

I'm currently stripping a 1950s/early 60s East German Saumer bass because the varnish was so brittle and failed that you could remove it with your fingernail. To me it is the "what next" and I received a flood of responses from all sorts of people when I asked about re-varnishing with Tung Oil (look for the old thread).

Re-varnishing can be done sympathetically to the age of the instrument, in a manner that doesn't look like a auto paint shop re spray job. People hand-crafting new fine instruments today have found ways to reproduce the look of old varnish. My luthier, Harry (C.A.) Vatiliotis, has been very generous with his advice.

In the case of the Saumer bass the spirit varnish, when scratched, stank of Copal and some idiot had spilt alcohol down its front. The woods used in its construction were far better than the original varnish and there are only a couple of small shrinkage cracks to close up. The neck has warped after the fingerboard had been re-glued on with PVA glue that had crept. The bent ebony fingerboard is of a quality that can't be replaced today. I am going to try and steam the neck and fingerboard straight. In the past we have all been too liberal in discarding "banana'd" fingerboards and should treasure what we have left of quality ebony.

DP

[Andrew McGregor]

'lumps of glue'? That's in need of work... come on, there's no value in leaving crappy repairs like that. Now, ok, leave original finish alone as much as possible if it's in any state to do that... but sometimes the practical value of an instrument exceeds its antique value, and then it's time to fix it up.

[MrSidecar]

@DavidPotts:

That was the case with the Rubner also, once the varnish was off you could actually see the quality of the woods. Especially the back was nice. Plus, on the back there was a stain that looked quite strange, and when the varnish was removed it showed that somebody had smeared some kind of putty on (the stuff you use to fill indentations) and varnished over it. Only that there appeared to be nothing that needed the putty... Weird. Anyways, it´s always possible that a beauty hides under horrible varnishes.

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

I'm riding with Sidecar as well.
I recently bought a late 19th century German flatback that had just undergone a total restoration and refinish. The sound from the first note was amazing. The luthier told me that his finish was a major reason it sounds so good. A proper ground and finish won't kill the sound.
Did my bass lose value? Maybe/maybe not. Compared to the other hundred or so basses I've tried, a few being German flatbacks, the sound is night and day. There is an openness, a singing quality that makes playing it a joy.
It is a musical instrument and it should sound and play it's best. I was looking for a healthy instrument that sounded good. If I wanted original finish I would have picked one that didn't inspire me to play. It's not a piece of furniture after all.
However, refinishing an instrument that already sound good and has a finish worth saving is probably not wise.

[MrSidecar]

@clink: Of course you don´t fix anything that ain´t broken, so if it looks ok, don´t change it.

[MrSidecar]

Might be interesting to add:

I had the same with my refinished Rubner. All the others I checked didn´t appeal to me, not even much more expensive ones. -Now, I recently sold my Rubner, after long years of pleasureful playing, but only because I found this one instrument (Hungary, approx. 1830, former 3-string) that is by far the best bass I have ever laid hands on. Has everything my beloved Rubner had, but much more of it. (Granted, I don´t have much experience with italians from the late 1700s or big huge english basses).

And: It is revarnished. And I don´t mind. I guess most wouldn´t if they heard and played the bass.

This Rubner sold for very ok money. Numerous fellow bassplayers had checked it out and stated it was the best instrument they had ever played. (that might also speak for their experience, but anyways.)

This anecdote serves as proof for the fact that "value is only what you get for something, not what anyone says". If there is someone who falls in love with a bass spot-on and has the funds and is willing to pay (and he most likely is because the others he had checked out didn´t appeal to him, regardless of maybe even heftier price-tags), then THIS is the value in that moment and not what a luthier makes up.

Best

Sidecar