Refinishing Concern

B. Graham · #1 02-03-2007, 10:43 PM

I've got most of a plywood Eberle stripped. The concern I have is over the different hue between the spruce top and edging, and the maple back and sides. See the pics.

To get an even color when I finish it, is there some pre-treatment that I should apply to get a more even base to start with i.e. tea or other substance?

Thanks.

B. Graham · #2 02-03-2007, 10:49 PM

Another view

nicklloyd · #3 02-04-2007, 12:10 AM

You are looking at endgrain there... it is naturally darker than facegrain wood.

What finish are you planning on using for this project?

B. Graham · #4 02-04-2007, 06:14 AM

Hi Nick,

I was planning on the following your suggestion in another thread and using TruOil, or possible Heirloom as mentoned by Arnold. I like the idea or rubbing rather than brushing, and I'll be looking to tint the oil to obtain something dark reddish brown. Similar to the Walnut Gamba on your site if possible.

B. Graham · #5 02-04-2007, 06:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nicklloyd

You are looking at endgrain there... it is naturally darker than facegrain wood.

I was aware of the grain issue, but what I'm not sure about is how to level the grain shades out a little before I apply the finish I ultimately want. Not having refinished a bass before, I figured I'd better ask.

Thanks for any advice you can share.

3rom · #6 02-04-2007, 07:25 AM

I am a professional refinisher of antiques for over twenty years. ther are several ways to bring these two diffrent woods together. The sides are maple. maple is a very hard wood and takes finish diffrent than the softer spruce top. What color are you hoping to acheive a brown or blonde?

nicklloyd · #7 02-04-2007, 08:17 AM

On the eberle ply bass (as is some other basses) the top ply is maple, as well as the rest of the ribs and back.

B. Graham · #8 02-04-2007, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3rom

are you hoping to acheive a brown or blonde?

Brown

3rom · #9 02-05-2007, 07:39 PM

Probably the easiest way to bring them together is with an oil based stain (provided it is compatable with whatever your chosen top coat is). You can use it full strenth on the lighter areas and thin it out with mineral spirits on the darker areas. You can even it out with a rag slightly dampened with mineral spirits

The most important part of the finish job is a properly prepared surface before staining and finishing. You must make sure all the old finish is off, and as little sanding as possible
by hand. You shouldn't use a machine sander on a plywood
bass. You could burn through the top layer of ply. Always sand in th direction of the grain, and as evenly as possible.
The stain will show any flaws in your prep work

B. Graham · #10 02-05-2007, 08:39 PM

I get the sanding points. Not yet sure of the final finish. I like Nick previous posts about the ease of TruOil.

I believe I've read a post of two cautioning against staining the wood. Can you expand on this approach and the pros/cons?

Thanks.

philip sirois · #11 02-05-2007, 09:02 PM

I think you do not want to stain the wood. Arnold had a post somewhere about a finish he tinted with oil color. Something like that is the way to go I would think. Maple is notorious for its poor taking of stain, especially a dark one. I think shaded varnish is the best way to have an even finish that presents with a certain amount of depth. Several thin translucent coats will yield the best result, give you some margin for error allowing you to gradually alter and darken the color until you get it how you like it. By using the oil color as a tinting agent you have infinite color possibilities. Also, if youre going dark enough you can hide/incorporate any stubborn color you might have leftover from the stripping, and your won't have to sand to much wood off. You really dont want this thing to look like furniture. Shaded varnish! You very well might want to seal the wood with a couple of clear coats first, which would make the color distribute more uniformly over the differing wood, grains and edges, but I'll defer to those with more expertise than myself for the exact approach.

nicklloyd · #12 02-05-2007, 09:50 PM

For simplicity's sake, I'd do one or two clear sealer coats with truoil or waterlox. Then a Minwax Oil Glaze (pick your color). It's very easy to work with. Get the color/tone you like, then top coat with the same product you started with. Straight color on unfinished plywood will produce spotty results, and it will be very hard to undo later if you decide you don't like it.

**Matthew Tucker** · #13 02-05-2007, 11:22 PM

Nick, Truoil and waterlox are both advertised as products that penetrate deep into the wood. Is there any circumstance where this would not be a good idea?

3rom · #14 02-06-2007, 05:33 AM

Staining on unfinished wood will not be spotty if your prep work is good. however, the way suggested with the glazing stain after sealer is an easy way. The only drawback is color on the surface is not as durable as all the color under the sealer. Surface scratches do not show as bad if the color is buried under the sealer. That being said if you do not have the experience of knowing if your prep work is correct. The glaze is the way to go.

Martin Sheridan · #15 02-06-2007, 05:09 PM

I've used Tru Oil on my instruments for years. It is as thick as linseed oil because that's what it is and it does not penetrate very deeply at all unless one was to thin it quite a bit. Tru Oil has driers but if I remember correctly it has a process where oxygen is infused (forced?) into it which allows it to dry and look like an oil varnish instead of turning gummy like linseed oil. It does not contain a resin! Nick, or anyone, please correct me on the process. I spoke with the guy who makes it many years ago so my recollection is a bit fuzzy.
In my opinion it looks better than the commercial oil varnishes on the market and usually dries in a couple of hours depending on humidity and temperature.

Lately I've been tempted to return to the use of seedlac, but every varnish and varnish method has it's own problems.

When I first began as a maker I thought the making part was the hardest, but for many years I've felt that it is the finishing. Another maker once told me to find a method I liked and to stick to it, because he thought it was more important to learn to use your varnish properly than what the varnish consisted of. I think there is a lot of truth to that.
Now to find Nick's article and learn something new.

I'm finishing my Testore model now and had to remove the varnish from the top. When that little voice in your head says "you're getting tired, stop now and finish tomorrow" do it. It's added a couple of weeks to the process. I was getting tired and the light was fading and I missed seeing a couple of bad spots.

I'm in Mexico now and can't find the deally that connects to my computer, but I'll get some pics somehow and post them on the Bass Eye Candy forum When I'm finished.

Martin Sheridan · #16 02-06-2007, 05:18 PM

Ok. Sorry but I don't have the patience to search 5000 treads. Can someone refer me to Nick's comments or article on Tru Oil?

arnoldschnitzer · #17 02-07-2007, 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3rom

Staining on unfinished wood will not be spotty if your prep work is good.

I beg to differ. Softwoods will stain blotchy no matter how much prep work you do. On a carved top, you have endgrain in various angles all over the place. Of course endgrain absorbs more than face grain and will therefore get darker (and make the area blotchy). Laminated tops, whether hard or soft wood, contain areas where the laminating glue has migrated close to the surface; those areas will try to reject stain. It's best to do a seal coat or two before going into heavy stains.

B. Graham · #18 02-10-2007, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nicklloyd

For simplicity's sake, I'd do one or two clear sealer coats with truoil or waterlox. Then a Minwax Oil Glaze (pick your color).

I've not heard the term "glaze" before from Minwax. I'm assuming you mean thier stain product?

Thanks.

**Damon Rondeau** · #19 02-10-2007, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldschnitzer

I beg to differ. Softwoods will stain blotchy no matter how much prep work you do. On a carved top, you have endgrain in various angles all over the place. Of course endgrain absorbs more than face grain and will therefore get darker (and make the area blotchy). Laminated tops, whether hard or soft wood, contain areas where the laminating glue has migrated close to the surface; those areas will try to reject stain. It's best to do a seal coat or two before going into heavy stains.

And not just softwoods! Some hardwoods are infamous for blotchy acceptance of stain -- cherry is particularly nasty, and maple isn't a whole lot better. You don't see much cherry in basses, but maple....

I wound up burning the first cherry piece I made -- a shelf unit. I was so excited to be working with some nice stock and I did some nice work there. Loved the whole thing until I stained it. So blotchy, so ugly, so irreversible... I could never love it after seeing it that way so to the flames it went.

I'd hate to see that happen to someone's relationship to their bass.

nicklloyd · #20 02-10-2007, 03:49 PM

Glazing is a specific finish technique, used for centuries, usually with oil varnish. However, the idea can be transferred to other finishes.

The glaze coat is applied on top of previously applied (and dry) coats of finish (truoil, shellac, waterlox, urethane, whatever). It does not stain, but rather sit on top of the finish-sealed wood. After the glaze has dried, more clear coats are applied. Minwax Gel-Stain can be used as a glazing material. Several different mediums can be used as well. Some people use lightfast artist colors.

Most glazing mediums are thicker in consistency, like a heavy-cream or thin-honey consistency. Stains are usually very thin and watery. Stains are used on unfinished/bare wood.

Make sense?