Refinishing Concern - Page 2

B. Graham · #21 02-11-2007, 07:11 AM

Yes. Just wasn't sure if you were talking about a material or a technique. Now I understand.

Michael Case · #22 02-12-2007, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nicklloyd

For simplicity's sake, I'd do one or two clear sealer coats with truoil or waterlox. Then a Minwax Oil Glaze (pick your color). It's very easy to work with. Get the color/tone you like, then top coat with the same product you started with. Straight color on unfinished plywood will produce spotty results, and it will be very hard to undo later if you decide you don't like it.

Hey Nick, would you recommend this method for refinishing a Strunal hybrid?

nicklloyd · #23 02-12-2007, 01:18 PM

It could be used. Just make sure the wood is well sealed with clear finish material (whatever you are using) before applying the glaze coat. The glue under the top layer of veneer can produce odd spots w/glaze (see Arnold's post) if the plywood is not well sealed first.

B. Graham · #24 02-12-2007, 09:29 PM

I haven't gotten to the color coats yet, but Tru Oil is working well I think for the base/sealer coat. Very easy stuff to apply, and the figuring of the veneer is looking pretty and deep.

B. Graham · #25 02-15-2007, 08:31 PM

Maybe I'm wimping out a bit.

Ready to apply color. I've got a small piece of flame maple like the back of this bass and I've applied a couple of coats of the Minwax Gel Stain as Nick suggested to it as a trial run. The color should be cool, but the controling the application of this stuff is my concern. You're suppose to put it on, and then wipe off the excess. As the pictures at the beginning of this thread shows, I've got a lot of shading difference between the top/edging and the ribs/back. Being able to "cut-in" on the lighter areas to balance the bass out seems important to do. A brushed on tinted oil varnish seems more controlable, maybe?

arnoldschnitzer · #26 02-16-2007, 06:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Graham

Maybe I'm wimping out a bit.

Ready to apply color. I've got a small piece of flame maple like the back of this bass and I've applied a couple of coats of the Minwax Gel Stain as Nick suggested to it as a trial run. The color should be cool, but the controling the application of this stuff is my concern. You're suppose to put it on, and then wipe off the excess. As the pictures at the beginning of this thread shows, I've got a lot of shading difference between the top/edging and the ribs/back. Being able to "cut-in" on the lighter areas to balance the bass out seems important to do. A brushed on tinted oil varnish seems more controlable, maybe?

Apply the gel stain with a foam brush. Do one area at a time (top, back, side, etc). Even out as well as possible. Use a dry natural-bristle brush to blend areas that need it. Remove in spots if you want to create a worn look. Blend edges with the dry brush. It's easy--you'll get the hang of it in no time. You do not need to remove excess if the coat is even. But let it dry a couple days.

B. Graham · #27 02-16-2007, 09:33 PM

Letting it sit some seems to be be needed. The gel stain doesn't really grab hold of the Tru Oil, which I suppose it the whole point of the oil sealer.

It's going to take awhile to get it as dark as I want. Maybe ditching this strategy and tinting some oil varnish and getting some brush-time might be more appropriate.

Too many options, not enough basses to try them all.

nicklloyd · #28 02-17-2007, 08:17 AM

How long did you let it dry?

Getting a dark color with tinted varnish is going to require several coats, and more time/work. You can topcoat your first glaze coat with clear, then repeat with more glaze.

B. Graham · #29 02-17-2007, 09:43 AM

I didn't let it dry very long. Conflict between using the glaze to sit on top of the clear method, and the directions on the can to wipe off the excess.

I worry about getting the glaze so thick that it kills the visibility of the wood's grain. I don't want it to look painted when it's done.

At the start I thought, hey no big deal. Making the finish commitment is when the nerves start getting tense. I'm pleased to be working through, and I'm learned a lot, but ..... ugly color bass owning people beware, this is nerve racking if you're new to it.

nicklloyd · #30 02-17-2007, 01:50 PM

It's nerve racking to luthiers with 30 years experience, too! Finishing is a lifelong challenge.

B. Graham · #31 02-17-2007, 02:10 PM

Thanks Nick.

I've selected the Minwax Mahogany Gel Stain. Seems to be a pretty good match to the Pollman pic I'm using as a guide.

First coat on the top is on. Couldn't get all of the foam brush marks out, but it will get another coat so maybe they'll be diminished then. Would you 0000 steel wool it between coats. The Tru Oil sealing was really smooth, so there's not many surface imperfections.

Thanks for all of the tips and direction. If this works out I'll be on to the next task of fitting my first bridge. Thankfully I'm not searching for strings anymore as well: found the ones I like.

nicklloyd · #32 02-17-2007, 02:18 PM

I don't think steel wool is needed at this point. Use it at the end, with a little mineral oil... should rub out nicely.

**251** · #33 02-17-2007, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matthew Tucker

Nick, Truoil and waterlox are both advertised as products that penetrate deep into the wood. Is there any circumstance where this would not be a good idea?

It don't believe it can penetrate past the 1st glue layer of the plywood.

runamuck · #34 02-24-2007, 08:03 AM

Hey Bill Graham,

I just came across this thread and wanted to comment.

I think you've been given bad advice here. I'm not just another opinion: I'vebeen designing and building furniture for 30 years and have alot of experience with finishes.

Once you seal the wood, as you have with the oil, any oil stain will simply sit on top of the sealer and behave as a glaze does. There is little if any penetration of color into the wood fibers.

Oil stain is not designed to do that. If you continue you will not have a durable finish and unless you are exceptionally skilled the stain will not adhere and blend evenly.

I recommend that you remove the stain back down to the oil sealer coat and finish your bass with a tinted oil varnish.
However, without previous experience, it can be quite trying to achieve mastery.

mje · #35 02-24-2007, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by runamuck

...
I think you've been given bad advice here. I'm not just another opinion: I'vebeen designing and building furniture for 30 years and have alot of experience with finishes...

Basses are not furniture! When Arnold and his colleagues speak, they're passing on a 300+ year old tradition of technique. There are reasons you don't put the stain into the wood.

Michael Case · #36 02-24-2007, 11:19 AM

He did mention removing the stain down to the oil sealer and using tinted varnish. It doesn't sound like advocating applying stain directly to the wood.

nicklloyd · #37 02-24-2007, 03:23 PM

Staining the wood fibers is not a good solution for instrument finish. It works very well with furniture and other woodworking projects.

Glazing, and using the correct glazing medium, has been a successful and lasting instrument finishing technique for about 200 years now. It's taught at several instrument making schools, and used by hundreds of professional instrument makers.

philip sirois · #38 02-24-2007, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by runamuck

Hey Bill Graham,

I think you've been given bad advice here. I'm not just another opinion: I'vebeen designing and building furniture for 30 years and have alot of experience with finishes.

My family has been in the furniture busines for generations. You are in fact, just another opinion. And one wihich reflects an expertise in furniture making, not instrument building. As MJE said basses are NOT furniture. These guys givng the advise here are guys who KNOW their business, and their business is making fine instruments. From there posts here over the years it is also clear that they are most conscientious fellows who don't dole out idle advice. I got my money on them.