Refinishing an old Kay?

Ketter · #1 09-02-2010, 09:32 AM

Just bought an old Kay that needs some help. I'll take it to a luthier for the bridge and reworking of the fingerboard but, being a carpenter, thought I might be able to fine sand it and refinish myself to save some money. Bad idea? The old finish is bubbling and cracking and there is some very slight delamenating that I could glue. Any thoughts greatly appreciated!!

Steve Swan · #2 09-03-2010, 07:33 AM

No matter how bad it looks, don't refinish it. Have a bass luthier glue the delaminations for you. This isn't a bookshelf. Maybe we should be a photo thread featuring Kay basses with funky looking finishes. You won't feel so bad then. Good luck with the tuneups and refinements. Let us know hopw it turns out.

MollyKay · #3 09-03-2010, 09:38 AM

If the original finish is intact I too suggest leave it as is. In my case I have had basses the finish was altered, stripped or the bass was painted. In all cases we look to see if the original finish is in tact and try to save it. If the bass has been painted…well…we try our best to make it look good again. A re-finish isn't as good as the original finish.

At Steve’s request here are slide shows of some of our projects…get some popcorn, pull up chair and have look.

http://s318.photobucket.com/albums/m...view=slideshow

http://s318.photobucket.com/albums/m...view=slideshow

http://s318.photobucket.com/albums/m...view=slideshow

http://s318.photobucket.com/albums/m...view=slideshow

vejesse · #4 09-03-2010, 10:04 AM

Were not talking about a fine instrument here, were talking about a plywood bass that was shot with furniture lacquer in a spray booth. There's nothing sacred about that. If you've got great finishing chops, why not?

wdnewman · #5 09-03-2010, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Were not talking about a fine instrument here, were talking about a plywood bass that was shot with furniture lacquer in a spray booth. There's nothing sacred about that. If you've got great finishing chops, why not?

Well, a couple of reasons would be that it would ruin the instrument both historically and at resell time. (If someone could duplicate the factory finish exactly, then perhaps....)

vejesse · #6 09-03-2010, 11:15 AM

I knew I would get that response. Playing devils advocate here.

Of course the usual recommendation is to leave the original finish. And nitrocellulose lacquer would be the finish in this case. Smell the nitro! as they say in the guitar world.

I've seen some plywood basses that have been masterfully refinished with sprayed lacquer or violin varnish. My preference would be oil varnish. Was the historical significance lowered? I guess, if there is any historical significance. Did the refinish lower the reselling price. Not in these cases but the work was very well done. In fact, they stand out from the crowd now.

So there's my take. I know there are folks here who cherish their plywood basses and consider them historical. Count me in there as well but let's keep it in perspective.

Michael Case · #7 09-03-2010, 11:24 AM

I love the refinishes on Molly's slide show. The work they've done are reason enough to try a refin.

kmanley_29649 · #8 09-03-2010, 11:31 AM

I say if you want to refinish it, then do it! I mean, it's your bass, right? I've been thinking of sanding and refinishing my Shen SB80 for a while now. I love the bass. It plays and sounds great for the stuff I play, but the more I look at it, the less I like the shiny reddish brown finish on it. I don't care about resale value or anything like that. I'm not going to paint it flat black or anything, but I will be trying to give it an aged look, and throwing on an old kay tailpiece and Kluson tuners. It's what I want to do, and if it's what you want to do as well, then do it.

Ketter · #9 09-03-2010, 05:16 PM

Thanks for the takes! I figured I would get a mixed bag of responses but since it's about 50/50 I'll leave it alone ......and build a bookshelf instead. Have a good weekend all!

bassics1975 · #10 09-03-2010, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ketter

Thanks for the takes! I figured I would get a mixed bag of responses but since it's about 50/50 I'll leave it alone ......and build a bookshelf instead. Have a good weekend all!

It's probably for the better. The problem with sanding is you remove more than just the finish. I have a century-old bass that has been very poorly refinished by someone with a power sander (complete with the same swirls that you and I could equate with as cabinet makers). You can see where the top and back has been thinned through this process. Unfortunately, the instrument has little value now because of this. Even if you were planning to keep it and weren't concerned about value, you would have to consider changes in response and tone.

bassphase · #11 09-04-2010, 12:46 AM

C'mon people. Those nitro finishes on Kays are BUTT UGLY!!!! They look like they should be sold at WalMart. My first bass was a Kay--that would be 40 years ago. After a few years, I stripped the nasty lacquer off and it actually improved the sound quite a bit. Back then there was no "Cult of Kay" to suggest you were "Changing a piece of Americana" by removing an embarrassing ugly cheapo finish.

Since then, it's had an amber oil varnish and currently a darkbrown with red tones and actually looks quite good these days considering what it is. I don't play it much anymore having went though 3 higher quality basses through the years. I've thought about selling it but I guess I shouldn't bother to try here with the "purists"---maybe I should paint lightning bolts on it and try the Rockabilly forums.

bob

kmanley_29649 · #12 09-04-2010, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bassphase

C'mon people. Those nitro finishes on Kays are BUTT UGLY!!!! They look like they should be sold at WalMart. My first bass was a Kay--that would be 40 years ago. After a few years, I stripped the nasty lacquer off and it actually improved the sound quite a bit. Back then there was no "Cult of Kay" to suggest you were "Changing a piece of Americana" by removing an embarrassing ugly cheapo finish.

Since then, it's had an amber oil varnish and currently a darkbrown with red tones and actually looks quite good these days considering what it is. I don't play it much anymore having went though 3 higher quality basses through the years. I've thought about selling it but I guess I shouldn't bother to try here with the "purists"---maybe I should paint lightning bolts on it and try the Rockabilly forums.

bob

I wouldn't bother with the lightning bolts. There are a lot of rockabilly guys who prefer the natural look. Lord knows I do!

bassics1975 · #13 09-04-2010, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bassphase

C'mon people. Those nitro finishes on Kays are BUTT UGLY!!!! They look like they should be sold at WalMart. My first bass was a Kay--that would be 40 years ago. After a few years, I stripped the nasty lacquer off and it actually improved the sound quite a bit. Back then there was no "Cult of Kay" to suggest you were "Changing a piece of Americana" by removing an embarrassing ugly cheapo finish.

Since then, it's had an amber oil varnish and currently a darkbrown with red tones and actually looks quite good these days considering what it is. I don't play it much anymore having went though 3 higher quality basses through the years. I've thought about selling it but I guess I shouldn't bother to try here with the "purists"---maybe I should paint lightning bolts on it and try the Rockabilly forums.

bob

I agree that the old Kay finishes are the last thing I would want on a nice instrument but the fact of the matter is there are very few people out there that would readily pay market value for something that has been refinished. I don't think 'purist' is accurate in describing what is being argued here. I am merely making an argument from the standpoint of value. I Have a 100+ year old carved instrument that has gone under the sander and I would be very happy to get the same $$$ for it as something that hasn't been butchered but we all know that that will never happen.

Bill Bentgen · #14 09-04-2010, 10:04 AM

I did it in 1965 when I was young and stupid. (Now I'm old and stupid). It turned out great, but only by accident.

bassics1975 · #15 09-04-2010, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Bentgen

I did it in 1965 when I was young and stupid. (Now I'm old and stupid). It turned out great, but only by accident.

Not all that bad! I considered doing this when I had my first instrument but I held off and it was a good thing I did. The person that I had sold the instrument to when I had upgraded was looking for the original finish (sort of like a sunburst) which I personally thought looked cheap. As tempting as it was to start the sander, it was a better financial decision not to do so. Who would have thought that these things would become as collectible as they are today??!!

vejesse · #16 09-05-2010, 06:13 AM

I would hope it goes without saying that if you're stripping the finish on a bass with 80 grit on a disk sander then you're a hack and have no business working on a bass. You strip the finish with chemical stripper to avoid removing wood. Even fine instrument makers will resort to that when a finishing job goes badly.

bassics1975 · #17 09-05-2010, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vejesse

I would hope it goes without saying that if you're stripping the finish on a bass with 80 grit on a disk sander then you're a hack and have no business working on a bass. You strip the finish with chemical stripper to avoid removing wood. Even fine instrument makers will resort to that when a finishing job goes badly.

Agreed. Unfortunately, not many amateur refinishers think of this and resort to using all the wrong materials.

james condino · #18 09-05-2010, 10:34 PM

Go ahead and strip the $#!^ out of it with an orbital sander form Home Depot, paint it all pimped out with rattlecan graphics and add skateboarder stickers everywhere; It's your bass!!!!

Every time someone butchers up a nice old Kay, regardless of the value or finish quality, the value of my original finish Kay goes up, because there is one less out there. Like it or not, "Kaydorks" are gaining momentum on the Kaybashing Kayphobes. I'm one of the dorks who generally pays the highest prices for the worst looking instruments in the room and won't even consider a refinish...unless I did it and it is on a Condino.

j.

bassphase · #19 09-06-2010, 12:35 AM

Just for the record I was joking about the lightning bolts.....

And my Kay was stripped with citrus stripper...barely touched with sandpaper. The finish on it now is thousands of times better than the nitroglop finish it had originally plus it sounds better with a thin oil varnish. I might even post pics if I decide to sell it here.

We're not exactly talking about a quality instrument here are we? It's very hard to imagine why someone would pay more for a beat to sh*t lame looking sunburst lacquer than a quite nice looking oil finish if all other factors are the same.

It seems preposterous to apply the criterion used on fine carved instruments, where refinishing WOULD be a mistake, to a student instrument that just happens to be going through a fashionable period.

But you may be right--I might get less money for it the way it is now... I have to remind myself we're in a country that actually likes the taste of McDonalds, ad nauseum.

H.L. Mencken said "No one ever went broke UNDERESTIMATING the taste of the American Public".

He may wind up being right here......which kind of makes a case for the cheese whiz nitro finish AND the lightening bolts....

bob

PB+J · #20 09-06-2010, 05:42 AM

In my opinion the finish on Kay's is awful looking, and I would not hesitate. But there is a big and to my mind inexplicable market for old kays (pssst: they're just englehardts), so you probably would be lessening the "collector value." But a goodlooking ply bass that plays well will always have decent value, and again in my opinion kay's have a hideously ugly factory finish