The "right way" to paint a bass?

[tbassist4]

What is the "right way" to paint a bass?

I'm planning on picking up a cheap ply bass and refinishing it as a project. I know this is a taboo subject, so please, put your prejudices aside. I have a hybrid I use at college and a nice ply for indoor jazz/bluegrass; neither of these will be touched, so I will not be manipulating something historical or valuable - just whatever I can pick up that sounds decent and is inexpensive. My reasons for committing such a heinous act are as follows: I play bluegrass during the summer, which includes playing mostly outdoors. Sometimes things work out where I don't have an indoor place to store my instrument overnight, or that place only shields from weather but not outdoor temperature changes or humidity. I don't want to bring either of my nicer basses outside and subject them to that. Thus I came up with the idea of purchasing an inexpensive ply bass that could use a little repair anyways, and refinishing it in nitrocellulose lacquer/paint for durability. Just for the record, I was thinking Fender Olympic White. (Luckily my scheme includes fun as well. )

So, here are my questions regarding the subject:
1. After using a chemical stripper to remove the previous finish, are grain filler or sand and sealer required on previously finished plys, or should I just sand out rough spots and go straight to primer?
2. Are nitrocellulose based paints better than acrylic tonally? I hear these choke the sound less.
3. Should the neck be painted as well, or is it better to just paint the scroll and keep the original light finish on the neck?
4. What special considerations should I take into account that would be different than finishing a guitar or electric bass?

I want to do this right, so I'd like to learn as much as I can.

Thanks for your time,
Tyler

[arnoldschnitzer]

Tyler,
As you stated in your post, you need a finish that will hold up well to exterior conditions. I think nitro is a bad idea because it tends to crack rather than expand and contract. Spar varnish would be my choice. It remains somewhat flexible, has UV inhibitors, and was made to hold up to salt water, sun and ice. You can tint it if you like with universal colorants, or you could use an oil-based paint on the bass, then brush several coats of spar varnish over it. Good luck with your "heinous act".

[tbassist4]

Originally Posted by arnoldschnitzer

Tyler,
As you stated in your post, you need a finish that will hold up well to exterior conditions. I think nitro is a bad idea because it tends to crack rather than expand and contract. Spar varnish would be my choice. It remains somewhat flexible, has UV inhibitors, and was made to hold up to salt water, sun and ice. You can tint it if you like with universal colorants, or you could use an oil-based paint on the bass, then brush several coats of spar varnish over it. Good luck with your "heinous act".

Thanks!
That's a great call on not using nitro, I didn't know it would crack like that based on temp/humidity. I have a couple of questions about the process of using spar varnish, if you wouldn't mind answering:

1.) Is there any specific kind of spar varnish that I would need, or would something like Minwax Helmsman work alright?
2.) Should all stages, including oil paint, if I choose to use it, and spar varnish be brushed or sprayed?
3.) For an opaque color, will tinting the varnish be enough, or do I need to put down oil paint underneath?

Thanks so much for your time, it's an honor to get answers from such a well know bass maker!

Tyler

[Big B.]

I dont disagree with Arnold, the spar vanish would be an optimum finish. The only potential problem I can see with spar varnish and white paint is that most oil based finishes will amber over time. Give it enough time and olympic white will be funky beige. Some of the modern guitar manufactuters have gone to waterbase finishes on painted guitars to prevent this. Other than that spar vanish would work great.

[Big B.]

I would suggest doing varnish over white paint. In my opinion its more steps but less potential for disaster. One trick I use with poly type finishes is to thin out your mix with mineral spirits to about half and half. This will thin the finish enough to wipe it on with a rag. This will take more coats but you get a nice hand rubbed finish without all the brush lines. Spraying would be my second choice but this type of finish can be really messy to spray and the cleanup gets old quickly. If you use a brush I would prepare for some serious rub time to rub out the brush marks.

[PB+J]

In my opinion--and I'm just some guy on the internet whose done some wood working and a small amount if instrument making, while arnold is an extremely skilled luthier who does breathtaking work--the finish on your bass is mostly decorative. The inside of the plates has no finish on it, after all; the wood isn't sealed. Boiled linseed oil is a nice easy to use low toxicity finish. It requires no rubbing out, it's not marred by airborne dust, and it leaves a handsome low gloss finish that highlights grain patterns. You can get it any hardware store and apply it with an old rag. You can reapply it whenever you like.

If you want a gloss, a polymerized oil finish is easy to apply--"tru-oil" is one brand, sold for gunstocks. It's polymerized oil that you can apply with a rag. After a few thin layers, it builds to a very nice gloss which can be wet sanded to a really high gloss if you like. It smells nice and it's very home-finish friendly.

One of the best books I ever read, in the sense of being clear, useful, and well organized and no nonsense, is Robert Flexner's Understanding wood finishing. He's not an instrument maker, but he has really accurate info about the strengths and weaknesses of various finishes

[arnoldschnitzer]

Originally Posted by tbassist4

Thanks!
That's a great call on not using nitro, I didn't know it would crack like that based on temp/humidity. I have a couple of questions about the process of using spar varnish, if you wouldn't mind answering:

1.) Is there any specific kind of spar varnish that I would need, or would something like Minwax Helmsman work alright?
2.) Should all stages, including oil paint, if I choose to use it, and spar varnish be brushed or sprayed?
3.) For an opaque color, will tinting the varnish be enough, or do I need to put down oil paint underneath?

Thanks so much for your time, it's an honor to get answers from such a well know bass maker! Tyler

Thanks, Tyler. Here are my responses:
1) Any good non-polyurethane spar varnish. Go to a boat store.
2) Varnish is meant to be brushed, and a good brush combined with good technique should not leave brush marks.
3) I think you will need to paint first. And if you put the slightest violet pigment in your varnish, it will counteract the tendency for the finish to yellow somewhat.

[forester]

in a bucket:
* 3 large coffee cans of hydrated lime (about 12 cups)
* 1 lb or one coffee can of salt (about 4 cups)
* 2 gallons of water
* stir..let sit overnight.

[tbassist4]

Originally Posted by Big B.

I dont disagree with Arnold, the spar vanish would be an optimum finish. The only potential problem I can see with spar varnish and white paint is that most oil based finishes will amber over time. Give it enough time and olympic white will be funky beige. Some of the modern guitar manufactuters have gone to waterbase finishes on painted guitars to prevent this. Other than that spar vanish would work great.

That's fine with me - if it gets towards cream than that's alright, having a bass like this show its age will be even better. Will it really get as far as beige? That's basically brown.

Originally Posted by PB+J

In my opinion--and I'm just some guy on the internet whose done some wood working and a small amount if instrument making, while arnold is an extremely skilled luthier who does breathtaking work--the finish on your bass is mostly decorative. The inside of the plates has no finish on it, after all; the wood isn't sealed. Boiled linseed oil is a nice easy to use low toxicity finish. It requires no rubbing out, it's not marred by airborne dust, and it leaves a handsome low gloss finish that highlights grain patterns. You can get it any hardware store and apply it with an old rag. You can reapply it whenever you like.

If you want a gloss, a polymerized oil finish is easy to apply--"tru-oil" is one brand, sold for gunstocks. It's polymerized oil that you can apply with a rag. After a few thin layers, it builds to a very nice gloss which can be wet sanded to a really high gloss if you like. It smells nice and it's very home-finish friendly.

One of the best books I ever read, in the sense of being clear, useful, and well organized and no nonsense, is Robert Flexner's Understanding wood finishing. He's not an instrument maker, but he has really accurate info about the strengths and weaknesses of various finishes

Durability-wise, what advantages does this have over spar varnish and oil paint? I have some experience with stains and finishes, but overall I'm pretty new to this. I had thought about the inside being unfinished too. I'm not skilled enough to take off the top myself, but would it harm the instrument to have my luthier do so and apply just a couple coats of varnish or linseed oil without paint, or would this deaden the sound great deal?

Thanks for the heads up on the book too - I'll have to see if I can find a copy around.

Originally Posted by arnoldschnitzer

Thanks, Tyler. Here are my responses:
1) Any good non-polyurethane spar varnish. Go to a boat store.
2) Varnish is meant to be brushed, and a good brush combined with good technique should not leave brush marks.
3) I think you will need to paint first. And if you put the slightest violet pigment in your varnish, it will counteract the tendency for the finish to yellow somewhat.

Great! Thanks so much for the help!

[zenrad]

Reranch basics
http://www.reranch.com/basics.htm

Good book from Stewmac
http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Books,_p...p-By-Step.html

[fdeck]

Don't go with the nitro. You have no idea how many cigarettes you'll have to smoke in order to get Fender White to the correct color on such a big instrument.

[tbassist4]

Originally Posted by zenrad

Reranch basics
http://www.reranch.com/basics.htm

Good book from Stewmac
http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Books,_p...p-By-Step.html

Reranch is a great site, that's where I looked to start with. I don't suppose that Stewmac book covers unconventional finishes like what we've been discussing above, does it?

Originally Posted by fdeck

Don't go with the nitro. You have no idea how many cigarettes you'll have to smoke in order to get Fender White to the correct color on such a big instrument.

Well, even though I've ruled out nitro for durability reasons, I'd have no problem finding enough smokers (as well as the occasional spilled beer ) at all the bluegrass festivals and camps to get any white finish to the "correct color" within a year. The funny thing is I wouldn't be responsible for any of it.

[zenrad]

Originally Posted by tbassist4

Reranch is a great site, that's where I looked to start with. I don't suppose that Stewmac book covers unconventional finishes like what we've been discussing above, does it?




Well, even though I've ruled out nitro for durability reasons, I'd have no problem finding enough smokers (as well as the occasional spilled beer ) at all the bluegrass festivals and camps to get any white finish to the "correct color" within a year. The funny thing is I wouldn't be responsible for any of it.

Nitro is an exceptionally durable finish, especially compared to any oil-based or varnish finish. Varnish darkens over time also, as will any oil-based finish.

A nitro finish on an acoustic instrument is applied the same way no matter what it is you're finishing, so the techniques and finish recipes will work fine depending on the color you're after. The StewMac book outlines the right way to finish an acoustic or electric instrument with nitro and provides some great recipes and other information.

You can yellow a white nitro finish by applying a coat of slightly tinted clear over the white nitro, then continuing with clear coats. You'd need to do some testng on scrap to get the mix right.

One concern I'd have about finishing a DB with nitro is the affect on the sound. You could drastically change the sound by spraying lacquer on it.

Someone suggested Tru-Oil, I did a guitar with that finish and it worked out quite well. I would use Tru-Oil any day over Linseed oil. Real Linseed isn't polymerized, it doesn't harden, and it takes a very long time to apply and requires constant reapplication over the years. Tru-Oil is more durable, but it still doesn't offer the protection that nitro does, although it can be brought to a gloss if you apply enough.

Another option is French polishing, but a shellac finish needs special care, and while it's very nice to look at when you're done and more acoustically transparant then lacquer it's a long and labor-instensive process. I did a FP finish on a classical guitar build and while it looks and sounds great I don't thing I'd ever do it again on anything other than a sound board becasuse of the time it took.

Some folks don't have much luck spraying lacquer, I'll admit that it takes some practice but once you get the feel for spraying your material and pay attention to surface prep and the other details (humidity where you're spraying, safety factors, etc) it works great and is easy to buff to a beautiful finsish when it cures.

There are some very good water-based nitros being used and developed, I haven't tried them yet but I'd like to give them a shot especially since they're safer for humans and the environment. Nitro is fairly toxic to spray - if you use it get a good respirator and do it outside.

[arnoldschnitzer]

Nitro vs. spar varnish in an outdoors environment= no contest. Nitro loses. It's dangerous to work with (explosive), toxic, and sounds crappy on acoustic basses.

[zenrad]

Originally Posted by arnoldschnitzer

Nitro vs. spar varnish in an outdoors environment= no contest. Nitro loses. It's dangerous to work with (explosive), toxic, and sounds crappy on acoustic basses.

Do you mean applying nitro outdoors or using the instrument outdoors?

While it would be my last choice for a DB finish, I've been spraying nitro lacquer in my garage with a makeshift booth and proper ventilation and have had quite excellent results over the years. It's not easy, and you have to take great pains to eliminate dust, and spray on days when the humidity is right, etc., but it doesn't gather the amount of dust that varnish will since lacquer dries so fast. Yes it's toxic, but so is varnish, unless you get a formula with low VOCs, but they will cure differently and not be as durable from what I've heard from those using it.

There's also the problem of the way varnish lays on top of itself rather than melting into each layer below - I never liked that and trying to buff it will give witness lines rather easily.

[arnoldschnitzer]

Zenrad, there is a reason the most expensive yachts in the world finish their brightwork with spar varnish. It is the most durable and protective finish for woodwork used in an exterior environment. And I believe this is what the O.P. was looking for. As far as spraying nitro in your garage, I would make sure your loved ones are out of the house, and be certain your local fire department does not know.

[zenrad]

Originally Posted by arnoldschnitzer

Zenrad, there is a reason the most expensive yachts in the world finish their brightwork with spar varnish. It is the most durable and protective finish for woodwork used in an exterior environment. And I believe this is what the O.P. was looking for. As far as spraying nitro in your garage, I would make sure your loved ones are out of the house, and be certain your local fire department does not know.

Yep, but I didn't think the OP was going to be paddling his DB across the lake to his gig

I've been spraying lacquer now and then in my garage for 15 years, and the local FD doesn't care. They also don't care when I clean motorcycle parts in a bucket of toxic flammable parts cleaner, make mil-spec bore cleaner (equal parts Kerosene, mineral spirits, acetone and automatic transmission fluid), or store smokeless powder and primers in my safe - and they've seen my reloading presses in the basement.

The garage opens to outside and no door opens to the house. Lacquered items cure in the garage and are not taken indoors for a day or so. There are no machines or other sources of ignition in the garage, and no light switches are turned on or off while spraying. I don't like the idea of what it does to the environment, one of the contributing factors in my decision to French Polish the classical guitar.

Varnish is certainly a traditional finish for a DB, but if the OP is going to use varnish then he needs to use a good violin spirit varnish and not marine or spar varnish. He's not going to be playing basketball on it or storing it in the marina.

[tbassist4]

Originally Posted by zenrad

Do you mean applying nitro outdoors or using the instrument outdoors?

While it would be my last choice for a DB finish, I've been spraying nitro lacquer in my garage with a makeshift booth and proper ventilation and have had quite excellent results over the years. It's not easy, and you have to take great pains to eliminate dust, and spray on days when the humidity is right, etc., but it doesn't gather the amount of dust that varnish will since lacquer dries so fast. Yes it's toxic, but so is varnish, unless you get a formula with low VOCs, but they will cure differently and not be as durable from what I've heard from those using it.

There's also the problem of the way varnish lays on top of itself rather than melting into each layer below - I never liked that and trying to buff it will give witness lines rather easily.

The bass will be used outdoors primarily, and it will probably be stored in a place that is not much different from being outdoors. I'm even considering having a thin layer of spar varnish applied to the inside as well, though I'm not sure yet. Nitro seemed like a good idea to me too, but it isn't a flexible finish, as Arnold explained above, and therefore is a bad idea for anything that will see significant temperature/humidity change. I'll be going with oil paint/spar varnish for this reason, and I'm not concerned with darkening either.

Originally Posted by arnoldschnitzer

Zenrad, there is a reason the most expensive yachts in the world finish their brightwork with spar varnish. It is the most durable and protective finish for woodwork used in an exterior environment. And I believe this is what the O.P. was looking for. As far as spraying nitro in your garage, I would make sure your loved ones are out of the house, and be certain your local fire department does not know.

And +1. Outdoor durability is my main concern, Zenrad. I'm actually assuming the finish will last longer than the bass itself. I used a fiberglass bass last summer for a festival, which was great from a weather durability standpoint, but it sounded like junk. I'm trying to keep the durability but improve the sound. We'll see how well the bass holds up structurally (fingers crossed).

[MolluskGoneBad]

Sorry to derail, but I saw the thread title and immediately thought of this as the actual "right way to paint a bass"

FJ: It has come to my attention that the bass Henry Grimes is using was given to him by one William Parker.

WP: I received an email that Henry Grimes was not dead, that he was found, and he was living in LA, and that he showed interest in getting back to playing. I didn't respond at first because I thought there was lots of bass players in LA and it would probably be easier for him to get a bass in LA, which I think he would have eventually gotten if I wouldn't have sent that bass. Someone in LA would have eventually gotten him a bass somehow. I think a bass needs to be played. When an instrument is just sitting around and not being played, it just sort of dies and then the more you play it, the better it sounds because the wood begins to vibrate and the molecules begin to spread. Instruments need to be played. They really don't need to be lying around dormant.


FJ: And you named the bass?

WP: When I got the bass, it was a regular colored bass. I stripped the bass and I refinished it in a green color, an olive green finish and I called it Olive Oil.

[zenrad]

Originally Posted by tbassist4

The bass will be used outdoors primarily, and it will probably be stored in a place that is not much different from being outdoors. I'm even considering having a thin layer of spar varnish applied to the inside as well, though I'm not sure yet. Nitro seemed like a good idea to me too, but it isn't a flexible finish, as Arnold explained above, and therefore is a bad idea for anything that will see significant temperature/humidity change. I'll be going with oil paint/spar varnish for this reason, and I'm not concerned with darkening either.




And +1. Outdoor durability is my main concern, Zenrad. I'm actually assuming the finish will last longer than the bass itself. I used a fiberglass bass last summer for a festival, which was great from a weather durability standpoint, but it sounded like junk. I'm trying to keep the durability but improve the sound. We'll see how well the bass holds up structurally (fingers crossed).

If you are planning on subjecting a DB to very extreme heat, humidity, cold, then it's going to crack and fall apart on its own anyway, especially if it's made with hide glue. In fact, a few hours in the Florida Summer sun and you might be able to get that top off by hand