self bassbar, replace?

[Blaine]

I'm curious, if you have the top off for other repairs, would you always recommend replacing a self bar with a conventional bassbar? Or any other thoughts on self bars(bassbar carved as a part of the top). thanks.

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Blaine

I'm curious, if you have the top off for other repairs, would you always recommend replacing a self bar with a conventional bassbar? Or any other thoughts on self bars(bassbar carved as a part of the top). thanks.

I think that's the best time to do it. The Integral Bar (selfbar) is not at the same angle as would be a real bar with slightly opposing grain. If the Bass is 80-100 years old or more and the Top is perfect with the old Bar and the Bass sounds great then maybe leave it alone. If the Bass is not at its best then by all means replace the integral bar for a real one.
I have an old Bohemian Bass here over 100 years old and I cannot tell from the outside if the Bar is integral or traditional or if its original. Between the dust and oxidation I just can't tell with the light and mirror I have. I talked to one Luthier about doing some edge work on the Bass and re-gluing some small cracks inside which are partially studded from the outside from what I can see. I then asked what to do IF the Bar is integral as the Top is in perfect form. He said that at that point since the Top is off already, the best thing to do is replace the 'bar if its not a real one.

I think the Bass sounds good but there is always room for improvement..

[Jed Kriegel]

An integral bar acts as a stress riser. It gives a huge amount of strength to an area parallel to a very thin, weak area of the top. The beautiful thing about a fitted bassbar is that its long grains cross the long grains of the top wood, spreading the load of the bridge. If the integral bar has not yet caused a crack, the top is probably thicker than it could/should be in the area surrounding the bar. That said- just anyold bassbar will not necessarily be an improvement. You can effect a lot about the bass's character through size, shape, stiffness, length, and placement.

[Buzz Grim]

I was about to raise this same question. The sonic and structural considerations of carved in bar vs. glued in.
I have an old flat backed Gamba shaped bass that I bought to repair. It has hat peg knobs and has the body shape and back angled neck block and heel that looks a lot like I've seen on Juzeks and such. It's made of decent wood. Quarted maple back and sides w/some flame, quartered spruce top, ebony fingerboard, beech or birch (how to tell?) carved neck.
I'm guessing 1900 to pre war for age.
The bass bar is carved in but it is at an angle to the centerline of the top like a glued in bar would be. This means that the grain of the bar does run out a little over the total length of the bar.
There have never been any cracks in the region of the bass bar so apparently the design has not caused problems.
My inclination with old instruments is to keep them as original as possible so I would rather leave the bar as is. That being said I am interested to hear educated opinions about carved vs. glued bars in older instruments. If there are plenty of old instruments that sound good with carved bars my decision would be made. If most basses with carved bars sound bad then I'd have to consider doing the job.
The top is off so it's now or never for me.
Buzz

[Matthew Tucker]

Well, a new bassbar probably won't actually devalue the instrument, and probably won't hurt the tone.

If you're happy with the bass's sound, leave it alone, but if you're not happy, you have little to lose by replacing the bassbar.