Set-Up Issue

[Stev187]

My bass had seen little action in the past decade, and I wanted to get it looked at by a pro (just for general health and welfare, etc.) before starting lessons again. After showing my bass to my new teacher and a couple of visits to the local bass luthier, I decided to to add bridge adjusters and have the fingerboard dressed. The action on this bass has always been a little high, which was just fine for the stringband gigs I had been playing. For going back to jazz lessons, I thought (as did my teacher and luthier) that the work was a good idea, and I still do.



Above is a photo of the bridge, and here's my issue. The bridge has been in the "wrong" place for more than 10 years. The current string length is 41.5", and my luthier told me that it really should be 42", which makes sense given the notches in the f-holes. I've been reading archived posts here on this issue for the past couple of days. When he added the adjusters, he said he'd put the bridge back where it should be after he did the fingerboard. When I picked up the instrument, however, he explained that he decided to put the bridge back where it had been. I think the fact that the bridge feet brought some finish up with them may have had something to do with it.

I have loved the tone of this bass for years, and I was secretly afraid that adding the adjusters would mess it up. Well, it sounds fairly much the same, which is good. And I think my guy did a good job with the dressing. But adding the adjusters hasn't brought the string height down by a whole lot. The bass does play better and I think I've achieved what I need for the time being (increased ease of play for more demanding study farther up the fingerboard). But I continue to wonder about the placement of this bridge.

What are your thoughts?

Let me close by saying that I'm not posting this to second guess the work of my luthier. While this is the first job I've had him do, I think he was really straightforward with me and did good work. He's a classically-trained bass player with a good reputation and the owner of a local violin repair shop (I'm happy to have such a guy in my town, so I want to patronize his place and develop a relationship with him). He did the jobs I paid him to do (add adjusters and dress the board), and the instrument plays fine.

Part of me thinks I should stick with this set up as I move through my lessons, learn more about my playing style and approach north of 2nd position, and re-evaluate the setup after a year or so. Another part of me wants to keep messing with it. I would welcome any advice and counsel.

--Steve

P.S. The bass has a clean bill of health; all those cracks you see on the top were repaired in a complete top-off restoration in 1998 and the work has really held up. It's a stable instrument with a nice dark tone.

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

Steve,
It looks like you have a nice bass there. If it were mine, I would move the bridge down between the notches. That will also have the benefit of lowering the string heights a bit. If you choose to do that, tune down enough to move the bridge without too much effort. Be sure it doesn't move left or right and that it stays straight when tuning back up. I wouldn't care much about the varnish issue.
You could also return it to your luthier but I would do this job myself.

[Eric Hochberg]

You can see in the pic the bridge slanting down on the G side. I would try and even that out. If you like the way the bass plays with the bridge up a bit from the notches and don't want to deal with a longer string length, leave it where it is. If you want to experiment, bring it down to the notches, but make sure the post is in a good spot in relation. It's possible the post won't fit correctly when it's moved.

I've been playing my bass with the bridge up .5" for a few years to keep the string length down, and all is well.

[Jake deVilliers]

If your guy installed adjusters he should have removed enough wood that you could pretty much lay the strings on the board...

I would have recommended a new bridge to replace that warped one - the 'E' string is ~1/8" closer to the nut than the 'G' string and that will make it harder to play in tune. Once the bridge reaches this amount of cupping, the deterioration tends to accelerate.

As Eric said, if you like the string length the way it is, there's no real reason to drop it down.

[Matthew Tucker]

Personally I don't think 1/8" on the E string is going to make much of a difference in your intonation. Looks to me like the feet aren't straight. I'd straighten them (lay a ruler across as a guide) but apart from that, if you like it the way it is and happy with the string length, I tink don' mess with it.

[Chris Symer]

Originally Posted by Matthew Tucker

Personally I don't think 1/8" on the E string is going to make much of a difference in your intonation.

Is the same true in regards to my left hand fingering? If so it's wonderful news!

[Stev187]

What a great place TB is! Thank you all so much for your thoughts and help. Based on your responses, I decided to try moving the bridge and center it on the f-holes. The string height came way down, and the bass still has its distinctive tone. I cranked up the string height a bit because I just don't like it that low. It's very nice to have the flexibility, though. The difference between the 41.5" and 42" scale length is noticeable but not a big deal. It's also nice to know that I could leave the scale length shorter if I wanted to. And I can live with the missing finish.



Above is a photo, with a higher res version here.

A couple of observations/questions:

1. The G string seems pretty far "inside" the fingerboard. Does it look off to you?
2. What would you do with the bare wood where the varnish came off under the old bridge placement? Leave it? Should it be touched up?

Let me close by saying THANKS again for the input and advice. This is a very nice neighborhood. Now I'm all ready for my lesson tomorrow.

--Steve

[Matthew Tucker]

Well it's not the bridge but the fingerboard which is off centre, you can see that clearly. But its a big job to re-align the fingerboard. If it bothers you you can get the crown of the bridge re-cut so the strings lie better over the fingerboard. Or a new bridge. Probably better than moving the bridge across.

[Stev187]

Originally Posted by Matthew Tucker

If it bothers you...

Thanks, Matthew! You know, it doesn't really bother me. I can live with it until I get a new bridge. I am thinking that I will stick with this setup for the rest of the year while I get back into lessons and playing. My thought is to reward myself with a new bridge, new endpin, and new strings after I learn my way around the upper register of the instrument.

Thanks to you and the other players/luthiers who gave me some guidance.

--Steve

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

In the meantime, I think you should move the bridge over to center the strings on the fingerboard. To me, that is more important than whether the bridge sits perfectly over the bassbar. You wouldn't have to scoot it over much.

[Matthew Tucker]

What's the soundpost doing while all this bridge moving is happening?

[Heirphoto]

Originally Posted by Matthew Tucker

What's the soundpost doing while all this bridge moving is happening?

Resting nicely at the bottom of the bass next to the tailpin

Tony

[Stev187]

Originally Posted by Heirphoto

Resting nicely at the bottom of the bass next to the tailpin

What's a soundpost? Just kidding.

I don't think the soundpost moved at all when I centered the bridge on the f-hole notches. I put the bass on its back and took only enough tension off the strings to very carefully get the bridge down there. The photo below doesn't show the soundpost's position in relation to the G foot of the bridge, but you can see that it's there. As near as I can tell, it is centered on the G foot of the bridge and perhaps a tad underneath it (I understand that this description might drive a seasoned luthier crazy). The overall tone of the bass hasn't changed much since I moved the bridge--if anything, it sounds a little better and more even in volume across the strings (the G string in particular has increased in definition and volume).



Higher res version of that snap here. I noticed for the first time that someone has put a pencil line near the soundpost, presumably to make it easy to see its position. I never noticed this; must have been done during the top-off restoration many years ago. Again, I'm sure you can't tell much from the picture, but it's proof that the soundpost isn't rattling around at the bottom of the bass!

Q. Since I moved the bridge myself, should I take it in to have my luthier make the soundpost is in the right place? If it's not in the right place, does that just affect tone or can it cause damage?

--Steve

[Matthew Tucker]

"underneath" doesn't sound right, there's usually no overlap, but " lower than" the foot would be a better descriptor for the right place. If you move the bridge without also moving the soundpost you're changing the relationship between them. if your bass sounds better and you're happy with it, leave it there, but a luthier may be able to make it sound even better!

[Stev187]

Originally Posted by Matthew Tucker

there's usually no overlap, but " lower than" the foot would be a better descriptor for the right place.

Thanks, Matthew. You're right, of course... I called my luthier to tell him that I moved the bridge. "That's fine," he said, "but now the soundpost is in the wrong place." Next time I have my bass in the neighborhood I'll take it by to have it moved. He assured me that there was no danger to the bass in the meantime.

By sticking an LED headlamp inside one of the f-holes (this is a great trick by the way--easy to get it out again) I was able to see that that soundpost is just below the G foot and perhaps overlapping by a few millimeters; hard to tell really. So yeah, it needs to be moved, but the thing sounds better than it ever has now.

Is it common to leave those handy pencil marks like you can see in my photo above?

--Steve

P.S. You do some fantastic carving, Matthew. I followed your links to the projects you are doing. Wow!

[Stev187]

I didn't want to clutter the board by starting a new thread, so...

I've noticed a small buzz/rattle that sounds like it's coming from the bass-side upper bout right around the bass bar. I did a number of searches on the TB archives and saw that similar buzzes have been discussed here at great length. Rather "necrobump" one of those threads or start a new one, I figured I would post something here to keep things tidy. Ultimately I will get this in to my luthier for a look, but I'm interested in your thoughts.

The buzz is most noticeable when I pull a hard/loud double stop on the D & G string (P5 "d" and "a"). Why am I doing this? Well, I find myself doing this a lot while I practice my intonation and making big shifts; one exercise I made up that's been helpful as I get better is grabbing this double stop on D & G in 1/2 position (open and 2nd finger), then quickly shifting up the fingerboard and grabbing the same two notes on the A & D string in III position (fingers 1 & 4). While I came up with this on my own, I am sure other players have done it--perhaps it's in a method book somewhere. I find that if I alternate fast enough, that P5 interval is still kind of ringing in the room by the time I shift and play the same notes on different strings. The sound of both notes is very clearly in my mind, for sure. If I don't hit it exactly right, I can hear it immediately. It's a good little exercise, and I alternate the duration and intensity of the notes.

So, that's when I noticed the buzz. I can make the same noise by playing the D string open about as loud as I possibly can. I think it's that open D, because that's the only note that can make the buzz by itself. I can make it go away by tilting the bass slightly (it sometimes goes away while I play seated; it's most prominent when I play with the bass standing straight up and down). The buzz doesn't happen when I make play the same notes on the A and D string (but, truth be told, I can't play those nearly as hard/loud in III as I can in 1/2 position). Finally, if I make the noise with the open D and lightly press the upper bout above the bass bar with my L hand, the noise goes away.

So naturally, I am worried. I'll get it in to the luthier, but I wonder what you all think. Based on my poking around in the TB archives, it seems like it might be a couple of things:

• The soundpost needs to be moved slightly because I moved the bridge between the F holes. Perhaps it will resolve when this is done.
• The bridge feet need to be shaped to fit the new position on the top; I can't get a business card under the feet, but visually you can tell that they are not as form-fitting to the top as they were before I moved the bridge down
• Perhaps there is an issue with the bass bar. Gosh I hope not. The area that "sounds" to be making the rattle was extensively repaired back in 1998. This was the most messed up part of the bass. For the past 10 years it's been rock solid, and I had hoped that it was fixed for good.

I have been practicing on this bass regularly for the first time in many years; as you can see above, it's been set up recently and checked out by a bass luthier. He's also a player, and while I have just started working with him, I think he does good quality work.

So, if I have a specific question, it's this: "could it be the bass bar coming loose again?" Thanks for your help.

--Steve