Setup for pizzicato with occasional bowing

stranded horse · #1 01-11-2010, 01:25 PM

G'day,

I play bass in an experimental/ambient(/rock) band, and I'm about to buy a double bass. One of the reasons was that I thought I have an additional cool effect when I just switch to bow after a plucked passage.
Well then I've read a bit, and learned that normally people use a different bridge height and different strings for bowing and pizzicato.

So what can you recommend me? Is it possible to get a decent arco and pizzicato sound from the same double bass during the same gig/song without having to make big changes?

cheers

drurb · #2 01-11-2010, 01:32 PM

Yes, absolutely! A good luthier can provide a setup that will be a good compromise for arco and pizz. and tip the balance of the setup toward the players wishes and/or proportion of each type of playing.

peterpalmieri · #3 01-11-2010, 01:36 PM

Being brand new to the instrument you will just want a general setup. What your talking about only comes into play when you get to a very high level, which is most likely years away if you are going to venture into the world of playing the double bass.....

Good luck!

stranded horse · #4 01-11-2010, 01:47 PM

I've already been playing fretless bass for quite a while, so I hope it won't take me more than 6 to 12 months to get accustomed to the larger scale playing pizzicato and once I got that, I want to learn bowing too.

drurb · #5 01-11-2010, 01:49 PM

I'm not sure what is meant by "general setup," but the curve of the bridge and the fingerboard dressing can certainly be skewed towards pizz. or arco even for a beginner. I think that often what a particular luthier might consider to be "general" would be optimized for arco. Talk to whomever would be setting up the bass.

peterpalmieri · #6 01-11-2010, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drurb

I'm not sure what is meant by "general setup," but the curve of the bridge and the fingerboard dressing can certainly be skewed towards pizz. or arco even for a beginner. I think that often what a particular luthier might consider to be "general" would be optimized for arco. Talk to whomever would be setting up the bass.

As you said "the fingerboard dressing can certainly be skewed towards pizz. or arco" I just meant it doesn't have to be... a "general setup" is a term I just made up but what I was getting at is that it would allow for either style.

drurb · #7 01-11-2010, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peterpalmieri

As you said "the fingerboard dressing can certainly be skewed towards pizz. or arco" I just meant it doesn't have to be... a "general setup" is a term I just made up but what I was getting at is that it would allow for either style.

No disagreement at all. Just wanted the make sure that the OP communicated with his luthier because some might think general=arco.

guroove · #8 01-11-2010, 02:05 PM

If you get it set up for arco, the action might be a little high for pizz, but if you don't plan on playing anything fast, that should be fine. Also, you can get away with a low action setup for some occasional bowing, if you don't mind some slop in your bowing sound.

stranded horse · #9 01-11-2010, 02:47 PM

Well the thing is that I will most likely play the pizzicato parts fast and the bowed parts slowly.

Eric Hochberg · #10 01-11-2010, 02:56 PM

As has been said, just get a good "general setup for arco and pizz", it will be fine for what you want to do. Then as you gain experience, you'll be able to tweak things here and there to your liking. You should be able to get away with (to start, anyway) 4-5mm on the G string to 7-8mm on the E for pizz and bowing, especially if you use an amp, you don't need a lot of bow pressure to get volume. Also, make it easy on your left hand by having very little scoop put into the FB dressing.

Square Bear · #11 01-11-2010, 08:17 PM

i mentioned in another thread a couple days ago that i change my height for jazz/classical playing, and others have said similar things here about ideal set up/bridge height/strings etc for pizz vs arco. this is what you are referring to. just to clarify, this means that i sometimes adjust to the gig... if i'm going to a jazz gig, i'll lower my height a bit and for an orchestra gig i will raise it. that doesn't mean that i don't play pizz in the orchestra sometimes or arco on the jazz gig sometimes, it just means that i adjust my set up to the general thing that i am doing that night. i use strings that are more generalized to the fact that i am primarily an orchestra bassist (maybe 90% arco/10% pizz). you should tell your luthier that you want a basic pizz set up but that you play arco occasionally as well... pretty much like you put it in this thread. you'll probably want lower action than an orchestra player would, but nothing extreme. the big thing to consider will be strings - you may find that a synthetic core string like evahs or obligatos will better serve your needs than something like a set of spirocores, as they tend to be easier on the bow. if you get adjusters, you should be able to fiddle with string height until you find what works best for everything you need, and then just leave it, maybe making seasonal adjustments.

congrats, i hope that you find playing the double bass to be a truly rewarding experience. welcome to talk bass!

shadygrove · #12 01-11-2010, 11:29 PM

+1 on the bridge adjusters. I play both pizz and arco on a laminate (plywood) bass. While the lamy is less sensitive to weather changes than a carved top, I do raise the strings up a little higher for acoustic gigs then lower the height when I'm plugged in. I don't move the adjusters very far, only about a 1 to 2 mm range of travel, but sometimes small changes in height can make a big difference in volume and/or playability. Well worth the extra expense IMO.

If you can afford a cheap bow right off it will help your intonation and since you want to eventually play with a bow why not jump in with both feet? I had to wait 6 months after getting a DB to afford a bow and initially got it as a practice tool, but really enjoy playing a mix of pizz and arco and use it playing with others much more than I thought I would.

stranded horse · #13 01-12-2010, 12:26 AM

But will that "general" setup just be more expensive, or will I automatically trade-off pizz sound for arco sound and vice versa?

Andrew McGregor · #14 01-12-2010, 03:20 AM

It's down in the details; a correctly set up bass can be used for almost anything, it's what you prefer. More acoustic volume requires more string height. As well, you have to have enough space under the strings to allow sufficient bow pressure for what you are doing; singing sound doesn't need much, but the faster you go the more bounce you need to account for, and orchestra work needs a lot of acoustic volume. But higher strings also slow you down some even arco, much more so pizz. Most of that can be dealt with by an adjustable bridge, just set it for what you need at the time.

The other thing is that the absolute optimal fingerboard scoop is fractionally different... but we're talking a tenth of a millimeter maximum, it truly is fractional.

And then there are strings; there are a few that are great for both, but they do give a particular sound. Spirocores or Corellis, pick your tension and (for the Corellis) core material. I went for Corelli Tungsten, YMMV.

So, my view is that a good general purpose setup is possible, isn't more expensive, and is only a slight tradeoff provided that you really are aiming for general purpose. You can get a setup that can handle full-on orchestral playing and jazz with only a bridge tweak... a really bluesy old-time jazz sound it will not be, but a good modern jazz sound is well doable.

Cody Sisk · #15 01-12-2010, 06:20 AM

Do you plan on being amplified when you pizz and bow? Or do you go acoustic when you bow? Answering these questions will help in your choice of string.

If you plan on playing with the bow amplified, I'd go more with an orchestral string. Otherwise a bright, edgy pizzicato string (or even a hybrid) would sound really harsh and nasty when bowed and amped. Depending on your rig, you can always EQ a brighter sound when you're playing pizz.

I recently played in a band where I played arco exclusively. Getting an amp to sound right with the bow is tricky and you need a pretty hefty rig. DO NOT plug into the house PA with an upright you plan to bow! You'll blow the horns in about 10 seconds..

I used an Ampeg SVT-450 and a 15" cabinet. Playing with the bow, the limiter light was on almost constantly. I don't recommend a cabinet with smaller cones. You won't get the depth you need..

Good luck!

peterpalmieri · #16 01-12-2010, 08:22 AM

^ Dallas strings...Good thoughts on string choice...

However I'm not sure I agree with the amplification suggestions. You do need to be careful with attenuating the volume when moving to the bow no question but I and many others have had great success using a small amp and cabinet such as a Focus or Doubler and a VL208 or Wizzy cabinet. It is very possible to use the bow and play through a PA system you just need to make sure your signal level is not to hot when doing so.

There are lots of solutions for switching between pizz and arco when sending to your amp or a PA. The most common is a dual channel preamp that will allow you to attenute your signal or even shape it differently when playind arco passages.

Feral Feline · #17 01-13-2010, 08:09 AM

SH,
many of your goals are quite similar to mine, though you're probably playing pizz way faster in the type of music you're playing than the rootsy/folk/Celtic stuff I play.

I'm mostly pizz and slap, with occasional slow bowing on some songs, playing amplified.

Suggestion 1: Clean Boost pedal or volume pedal
I use the boost channel on my preamp (PZed-Pre) for pizz and then knock off the boost when I'm slapping or bowing. I found a sale on a Visual Sound volume pedal and thought, 'when the heck would I ever need that'; I regret not buying it as stomping on the boost button doesn't offer as much control and bending down to fine tune things on the pedal isn't an option in the middle of a song switching from arco to pizz.

Until recently I used whatever the venue provided for amplification, which resulted in howls from my bowing and howls of laughter from my bandmates and the audience.

Suggestion 2: Evah or Obligato
I couldn't afford the time or money in trying lots of different strings so I researched heavily to find my string, Obligato. Then the Evah Pirazzi came out and I've switched to those. I use solos, tuned down to EADG, so that I can slap. Overall, I think they sound good for pizz, bow and slap. Corellis and Spirocores, as mentioned, might suit you, too.

Suggestion 3: German grip
I've got French grip bows, but would like to learn German grip as Slam Stewart and other bass heroes I like use that grip. Supposedly you can switch back and forth between pizz and arco quickly. I'm not saying it can't be done with a French stick, but I've seen few French grip players holding on to their bows while pizzing like Slam does.

Other thoughts:
My bass doesn't have bridge adjusters, but then I'm not whizzing around Thumb Position. Look into the pros and cons of bridge adjusters before making that call. I wanted them, but...

Research research research. Read as much as you can so when you find your bass you can take it to your luthier and say with confidence "This is how I want it set up."

Let us know when you've found your bass, okay?

Cheers,
FF

stranded horse · #18 01-13-2010, 08:51 AM

The suggestion with the dual channel preamp sounds nice. Also thanks for the string suggestions.

How do you prevent feedback if you play with amplification?

Square Bear · #19 01-13-2010, 09:23 AM

i'm going to agree with feral on a few points. evahs or obbligatos are the strings that will be best for your purposes IMO. also, the advantage of german grip is that you can use the same kind of pizz (using the side of your 1st finger pointing downward) even while holding the bow. with a french bow, you have to use an orchestra style pizz while holding the bow, which is a little different. either way, you'll want to get a quiver for sure to hold the bow when you're not playing. i really think you should get adjusters though. you don't want to have to go to the luthier every time you need to make a small adjustment. plus, the luthier can only take wood off your bridge, which does you no good if your action is too low. just get adjusters. the cost is the same as a couple trips to the luthier.

shadygrove · #20 01-13-2010, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stranded horse

The suggestion with the dual channel preamp sounds nice. Also thanks for the string suggestions.

How do you prevent feedback if you play with amplification?

Here's some tips from Uncle Toad I've found very helpful for preventing and dealing with feedback...

Stopping Feedback in LOUD Settings

There's also more info on that topic in the newbie links of the amps forum.