Setup question for old bass

[komuso]

Hello, new here, and new to double bass.

I just bought a late 1800's Rubner. It apparently needs some work, including a new fingerboard and bridge, and perhaps a reset of the neck. As far as I know, the neck was angled upwards and the bridge lowered by one luthier to reduce stress on the top of the body, while another luthier says that this limits the potential of the bass and the neck needs to be put back to its original position to bring it up to its full potential. Also, it currently has solo strings tuned to g-d-a-e, which apparently have a lower tension.

Its an old bass, was originally made for three gut strings, but now has four steel strings, so the difference in tension must be big.

Has anyone got any suggestions, insights into older instruments and the stress of steel strings, etc? Thanks.

[bonaventura]

With a bass like that, I would hope you wouldn't leave the steel strings on it. Gut or Velvets or some low-tension string would take the pressure off the top of the bass somewhat. It just wasn't made for the 60 to 70 lbs of pressure. Velvet Animas have about 25 lbs and I've got those on my carved bass -- good sounding but not everybody's thing. Other low-tension strings are Eurosonic and Innovation.

[Alex Scott]

Is this kind of a German factory/shop made bass, probably worth 6-10k US? In that case, you have a very usable modern instrument which can certainly handle four steel strings, which are very much the standard issue things at this point ( and the last 30-40 years )

The suggested repairs sound like the right thing to do.

Solo strings are great if you are going to play solos only, and use them at the recommended whole step higher pitch (F#,B, A, E low to high) but are confusing when trying to read music in a larger ensemble or are just trying to learn how to play.

Since you are new to the double bass, how do you want to play?

I would suggest some easy to play strings and reasonable string height, especially when you are learning. You can choose strings that are designed or used for the kind of music you want to play. I hope you spend some time with the bow and a good teacher who can help make playing the bass easy for you.

I personally feel the Rabbath method and George Vance books offer a great, flexible foundation.

If you would rather have very by the book training, Simandl is good too.

[komuso]

I will probably start out learning arco because I want to be able to bow well. I will probably end up doing something closer to jazz most of the time. I will definitely be taking lessons and learning by the book.

A luthier told me it was more worth around $16,000AU.

I wont be doing solo work and I will just use standard tuning.

Thanks for you replies! Any other opinions or ideas? Both the luthier who performed the original mod and the guy who wants to reverse it are reputable luthiers who obvisouly see things very differently, so I need more opinions.

[Eric Hochberg]

Originally Posted by komuso

As far as I know, the neck was angled upwards and the bridge lowered by one luthier to reduce stress on the top of the body, while another luthier says that this limits the potential of the bass and the neck needs to be put back to its original position to bring it up to its full potential.

If the neck was angled upwards, then the bridge would have to be raised, not lowered. "Normal" bridge heights these days are 6-7". If the bridge is less than this, you may have trouble with the bow hitting the C bouts. A "normal" overstand is 1-1.5". If yours is less than this it may create a lower bridge height. In that case it might be good to bring the neck out.

I would guess that the original position of the neck was low compared to today's standards as many old basses I've seen have very short overstands and bridge heights and their neck angles may be more vertical.

How about some pictures. You should also direct your question to Ken's Corner forum, lots of good info there.

[bonaventura]

Originally Posted by komuso

Its an old bass, was originally made for three gut strings, but now has four steel strings, so the difference in tension must be big.

Has anyone got any suggestions, insights into older instruments and the stress of steel strings, etc? Thanks.

Originally Posted by Alex Scott

Is this kind of a German factory/shop made bass, probably worth 6-10k US? In that case, you have a very usable modern instrument which can certainly handle four steel strings, which are very much the standard issue things at this point ( and the last 30-40 years )

I am not an expert on old basses or basses from the 1800s (if that is "old"), but I had a look at a history of the bass. According to Jonas Lohse's website, which is in English and German, basses were made and set up with 3 strings into the 1920's, when the modern 4-string setup became standard.

www.doublebassguide.com/4_basicsGB1.html

So your bass from the late 1800s was definitely made with 3 gut strings in mind, not 4 high-tension steel strings or even the more modern synthetic strings like Dominants. Steel strings did not become popular until the 1960s. I just wonder if you really want to put that kind of tension -- 60 to 70 lbs per string -- on a bass that was made to be played using 3 gut strings with 25 lbs or less of tension. It just doesn't sound right to say that your bass is a modern instrument capable of withstanding steel strings... but maybe the expert on old instruments can give you that comfort. What did your luthier say about the string tension?

[JoeyNaeger]

If the top is carved within the range of modern instruments, I don't see why the extra tension would cause any more harm then on a modern intrument.

[bonaventura]

Originally Posted by JoeyNaeger

If the top is carved within the range of modern instruments, I don't see why the extra tension would cause any more harm then on a modern intrument.

Well, I guess you're right: If it is as strong as a bass made to withstand that pressure, it might cause no harm. But it stands to reason that the higher tension will put more pressure on the top, right? And depending on how strong the top is and what condition it is in, the extra pressure could cause cracks or other damage from the sound post area, right? Or maybe I am wrong...

[komuso]

Ok, I finally took a photo.

Im not sure what and where to measure, so if someone wants me to measure something, just ask where.

I still haven't had time to go to a luthier with this question, and I still haven't heard of any others apart from the one who restored it, and the one who wants to revert it to its previous state, so I cant really get a third opinion... thats why Im asking here I suppose.

http://bp0.blogger.com/_979S8d6CQ1c/...ideprofile.jpg

[Alex Scott]

Looks like what I thought, I would set it back to a higher angle, but I would not stress if you can't get around to it for a while. Does it sound and play well now?

Why do you think it needs the work?

[Matthew Tucker]

I suspect the same luthier lowered the neck angle on my bass too, possibly after a neck break. It plays OK, but I always wondered what it would be like with the original neck angle. I might reset it myself when my new bass is finished!!

Is there any sign of a screw or bolt in the heel? Are you in Sydney, or Melbourne?

[komuso]

I like the warm tone, but it isnt as lively as some basses Ive played, and the luthier who wants to reset the neck says that this is caused by the work the other luthier did.

Mathew, Im in Sydney. Youre in Melbourne? There is no screw or anything at the neck heel. Im thinking that at this stage, I might just take it back to the luthier who did the mod and ask him to shift it back halfway to where it was originally, and see what difference it makes. If the shift does something that affects the integrity of the body, I will have to have it shifted back.

I will ask about this over at Ken's Corner too.

[Matthew Tucker]

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