Shape of F holes and sound

[Eric Rene Roy]

Sounds like graduation work after the bar was set. Perhaps re-graduation by others...or better would be Gilkes going back after the bar was in and tweaking things himself. Maybe he did not like the flexibilty of the plate or the tap tones...or maybe went back after it was all buttoned up and playing.

Some makers play instruments in the white and tweak grads from the outside with a scraper...while others put the top on with weak glue knowing they are going to rip it off and tweak inside.

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by eroy

Sounds like graduation work after the bar was set. Perhaps re-graduation by others...or better would be Gilkes going back after the bar was in and tweaking things himself. Maybe he did not like the flexibilty of the plate or the tap tones...or maybe went back after it was all buttoned up and playing.

Some makers play instruments in the white and tweak grads from the outside with a scraper...while others put the top on with weak glue knowing they are going to rip it off and tweak inside.

I don't think it was after. There was a platform around the soundpost area as well. All looks original. If you like, ask Arnold. This is a bass with no top cracks or sinkage after almost 200 years. Go figure. Maybe Gilkes had a plan and knew what he was doing. Even though he trained many great makers, he was still secretive about some things. This is mentioned in text written by Simon Andrew Forster of 'Forster and Sandys' the 19th century London firm writing about the makers. Simon Andrew, son of William Forster III was a pupli of Gilkes in the Forster shop and complained later, perhaps after the sudden untimly death of Gilkes how he resented not being shown all of what Gilkes knew and could teach. Charles Harris II, son of Charles was also trained by Gilkes at the Harris shop (related to Harris, where he first learned his trade at an early age) as well as the first of the Hart family of 'Hart & Sons'. Some ideas or secrets are never revealed and die with the maker. They must be discovered years or centuries later.

[Eric Rene Roy]

Originally Posted by KSB - Ken Smith

I don't think it was after. There was a platform around the soundpost area as well. All looks original. If you like, ask Arnold.

That's the fun of forensic instrument making...it's all speculative...no one really knows as we were not there and the maker did not share.

I am sure Arnold knows better as he has had his hands inside the beast. I'm just presenting a theory based on the very little knowldege you presented. I'm was never taught...and I have never heard...of makers leaving a platform for the bass bar. For the soundpost...yes, def. But not the bar. perhaps Gilkes was onto something if the arching has not dipped at the ends of the bar like we do see all too often. But, I have always partially attributed that to poor bass bar fitting.

[Matthew Tucker]

Originally Posted by eroy

I know many violinmakers who weigh the belly of the violin before they cut the ff holes (actually, some of them obsessivly weigh everything).

yeah I've met people who subscribe to that method. Weight is everything; a violin top is thinned till it gets to right weight, apparently no accounting for density, even-ness, shape etc. But can you think of any reason why this method *would* be reliable?

A platform for the soundpost and bass-bar sound sensible to me. I suppose that doing that would - to some points of view - ruin the symmetry of the graduations of top and back. But ... I have a hunch that a bit of assymmetry isn't a bad thing.

[KSB - Ken Smith]

As a matter of fact, the top and back was made very thick so it seems as if it is still all original up until the time Arnold opened the Bass. there is only one exception and that is the cut. The shoulders were cut sometime in the latter part of the 19th century with some possible trimming to the underside of the new edges. The Bass has been in USA for about 50 years and the Top has never been off up until now.

The Top was about 12mm or so in the center tapering to about 8mm by the edges. The edges themselves are actually thin as all the previous top removals in the 19th century for rib repars have no re-edging at all. The edges got thinner as they leveled them to put the Top back on. The Bass is now re-edged all around with one continous piece of Spruce on each half or the Bass joining each other at the top and bottom blocks.

The Bass being a Cello replica when made had a proportionate thickness to the size difference overall on both the Top and Back plates. Only the ribs have cracked since 1814 when the Bass was completed. Many of the Rib repairs were done from the outside for the ones after the Bass arrived in America.

I have heard of one Italian bass with a 17mm back and it sounded great so re-graduation is not always the thing to do.

I think the Graduation and Bar may be all original. Unless the Bar was thought to be too short, I see no reason under its condition for the Bar to have ever been changed.

[Dr Rod]

Originally Posted by eroy

I started with the bridge...then the bass bar placement based on the bridge...and then built the bass around that.

Interesting approach. If you don't mind sharing:

did you use a particularly "outer" bass bar with a wide bridge?

In your experience, how wide is too wide?

Where do you place the left foot of the bridge, right on top or just over half of the bar?

[Jake deVilliers]

"apparently no accounting for density, even-ness, shape etc."

Actually, that is the only way to account for variances in density.
The master mandolin maker that I apprenticed with makes all the backs the same weight to compensate for differing densities. A harder piece of maple ( more dense ) will end up thinner than a softer ( less dense ) piece of maple.

The remarkable device that he uses to weigh them is his left hand!

At least I have a goal now.

Jake

[Matthew Tucker]

Originally Posted by Jake deVilliers

Actually, that is the only way to account for variances in density.

OK, I see. Interesting!

[arnoldschnitzer]

Originally Posted by eroy

Sounds like graduation work after the bar was set. Perhaps re-graduation by others...or better would be Gilkes going back after the bar was in and tweaking things himself. Maybe he did not like the flexibilty of the plate or the tap tones...or maybe went back after it was all buttoned up and playing.

No, this bass' top was all original inside. Built like a tank. Indeed there was about an extra 2-3mm left under the bass bar. I've seen many basses with a little extra thickness under the bar. Jeff Bollbach convinced me years back that it might actually be a good idea to leave a little extra wood under the bass bar. Now I graduate my tops assymetrically (I think JB does, too). My feeling is that it not only helps prevent bass bar area cracks, but is good for sound, providing a transition area from the stiff bar to the flexible top.

[KSB - Ken Smith]

[quote=eroy]Sounds like graduation work after the bar was set. Perhaps re-graduation by others...or better would be Gilkes going back after the bar was in and tweaking things himself. Maybe he did not like the flexibilty of the plate or the tap tones...or maybe went back after it was all buttoned up and playing.


Well, two weeka ago when I was at Arnolds, the tap tones were fine. About a 100% improvement from when the Top first came off according to Arnold. I have no clue what Gilkes had in mind. What we 'can' tell is that the Wood used was the best of any Bass for that period I have seen, it was a Cello shape blown up to 3/4 size and he made 7-layer prufling only 1.5mm wide and inlaid the entire Bass with it. The Purfling fades out at the tips just like a Strad Violin I recently saw in NYC. Maybe for whom he had made this Bass or Chamber Cello-Bass, the goal was not a deep boomy Orchestral Bass like that of a Dodd type instrument.

I think after the restoration, even Gilkes if he could see it and hear it now would be pleasantly surprised of the combined results of the 19th century shoulder cut, the current restoration and the neck stand move to make the shoulders more accessible.