Shortened Endpin

bejoyous · #1 07-17-2007, 12:48 PM

My bass has always made funny sounds on certain notes. When I took it to my luthier and played it (with the endpin in) the funny notes wouldn't be there.

I finally figured out it was the inside part of the endpin, which is about 7 inches of steel, vibrating simpathetically with those notes.

I determined what the maximum extension my pin would be in the course of my different playing position (standing with different footwear or sitting) and sawed off the unneccessary part of the endpin so that it is flush with the inside of the block-end.

The bass speaks much clearer now and there are no more funny notes.

I recommend it.

Dave Whitla · #2 07-17-2007, 05:46 PM

I've done the same thing with each of my last two basses. Made a big difference on both.

jdapodaca · #3 07-17-2007, 08:26 PM

This is interesting. I chopped off part of my endpin when I was having my bass-wheel made, and used the chopped off portion for the wheel.

Bejoyous, the sympathetic tones, did they occur all across the fingerboard? If it was, say, G, would the "funny sounds" occur on all Gs?

I'm asking because I have a problem with G on the E string, closed G on the D, and that same note when played on the A string, but I don't think it's a wolf, because wolfs should only happen on a certain pitch at a certain octave, right?

I don't have a lot of endpin left to chop off, though..

JoeyNaeger · #4 07-18-2007, 09:43 AM

Wolf tones can occur on any of the octaves on the bass I've found. It's gone now, but I used to be able to produce my wolftone in about 5 or 6 places on the fingerboard.

**Chris Fitzgerald** · #5 06-08-2008, 07:21 AM

I've been thinking about this subject a bit as I recently bought a shorter stool for playing, and with this stool I don't really need to extend the endpin at all. So... does having a lot of unused enpin sticking up into the middle of the inside of your bass negatively affect the sound, or not? If so, I imagine it would be easy enough to buy a second pin and saw it down. If not, why waste the money?

What say, Lluthier types?

Greg Clinkingbeard · #6 06-08-2008, 08:49 AM

I'm no Luthier, but I cut my endpin and recommend it. Does removing the extra length make a big difference? No. On my bass (KC Strings carved) the change made the bass sound more clear and open.

Eli_Upright12 · #7 06-08-2008, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdapodaca

This is interesting. I chopped off part of my endpin when I was having my bass-wheel made, and used the chopped off portion for the wheel.

Bejoyous, the sympathetic tones, did they occur all across the fingerboard? If it was, say, G, would the "funny sounds" occur on all Gs?

I'm asking because I have a problem with G on the E string, closed G on the D, and that same note when played on the A string, but I don't think it's a wolf, because wolfs should only happen on a certain pitch at a certain octave, right?

I don't have a lot of endpin left to chop off, though..

I have wolfs on all Gs that are the same pitch as the open string including the open string itself it sucks major, i hate it maybe its an endpin issue, but I play with my endpin really far out already so I'm not sure I would want to cut it.

mheintz · #8 06-08-2008, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Fitzgerald

I've been thinking about this subject a bit as I recently bought a shorter stool for playing, and with this stool I don't really need to extend the endpin at all. So... does having a lot of unused enpin sticking up into the middle of the inside of your bass negatively affect the sound, or not? If so, I imagine it would be easy enough to buy a second pin and saw it down. If not, why waste the money?

What say, Lluthier types?

Not a luthier type, but I use a low stool, removed my endpin completely and just stuck a huge crutch tip on the bottom. It's a no fuss solution. When I stand, I use an eggpin. The next step will be to get a Laborie installed. However, lately, I've been finding that I much prefer the simplicity of sitting on the low stool.

Greg Clinkingbeard · #9 06-08-2008, 10:58 AM

The KC Strings angled block and pins look like a nice alternative to the Laborie.

Jake deVilliers · #10 06-08-2008, 12:03 PM

Chris, try taking the endpin right out and see if it changes the sound. Then you'll have your answer.

I've found that for pizz players, taking that weight off definitely opens up the tone, sometimes a lot.

You can substitute a drumstick a la Ray Brown too.

Uncletoad · #11 06-08-2008, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jake deVilliers

Chris, try taking the endpin right out and see if it changes the sound. Then you'll have your answer.

Perhaps when trying to figure out if the endpin is causing unwanted racket plugging the hole or taping it over after the pin is removed may be helpful.

If you try to differentially diagnose a buzz or noise by pulling the endpin from the hole it opens up a big hole in your bass that doesn't exist otherwise. That can confound your experiments.

This is especially important when trying to figure out if your buzz is from the endpin or an open seam somewhere.

If it's an open seam and you don't cover the hole the buzz will go away. The air escaping through the seam will exhaust through the endpin hole instead of the tiny seam hole. At that point you'll cut your pin down put it back in and the buzzy seam will sing away again.

That would just make your day.

Bob Branstetter · #12 06-08-2008, 09:11 PM

It might be interesting to see if the internal body cavity volume of the bass is increased enough by removing or shortening the endpin rod to produce a change in the body's resonance frequency (A0).

Jake deVilliers · #13 06-09-2008, 12:23 AM

That's an interesting thought Bob but I'm not sure if the volume of a 10 mm x 12" steel rod makes up enough of a fraction of a percentage to lower the Helmholz Resonance.

I've seen dust bunnies bigger than that!

David Potts · #14 06-09-2008, 07:21 AM

Aren't tubular end pins lighter, stronger and less flexible than steel rods?

My two basses have different end pins, one tubular and one good quality English solid rod. I haven't shortened either, thinking of the next owner probably being 8 feet tall by then, the way you young blokes stand tall these days. I think my basses have a warmer, more compact sound by having their end pins almost right in.

I can picture that a steel rod end pin pulled out a long way could distort and confuse the bass vibrations (therefore the sound) and absorb power if it were too thin and flexing a lot. It would also be more likely to resonate inside the bass if it were long and not extended very far. With the end pin not extended as much or right in and planted firmly in the floor, the belly should have its best chance to vibrate efficiently and project the clearest sound.

I've had end pins rattle or resonate with a twanging sound when certain notes are played. This has usually been a lower frequency that has been easy to differentiate from loose bass bars, open seams or loose patches. Often the hole for the end pin is a little too wide or not long enough. Cheap German end pins on older trade basses seem to be the worst offenders. Some slightly better makes had holes lined with cork to damp the rattle. If you can prove the rattle is caused by the length of rod inside then, yes, shorten it and keep the off cut.

To give the bass its best chance I like to plant the point of the end pin in wood, not a rubber donut. I staple a piece of sticky perforated plastic non-slip sheet (the sort sold to protect furniture being scratched by ornaments) to a 6" x 8" bit of 1/4" ply. A lot of venues don't appreciate their floors being holed. This cheap alternative works well on all surfaces, especially on carpet, and fits into my bass cover pockets. Donuts slip too easily on dusty surfaces.

Cheers to all......

DP

Bob Branstetter · #15 06-09-2008, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jake deVilliers

That's an interesting thought Bob but I'm not sure if the volume of a 10 mm x 12" steel rod makes up enough of a fraction of a percentage to lower the Helmholz Resonance.

I've seen dust bunnies bigger than that!

You may be right Jake, but I learned a long time ago that it doesn't take a huge change in volume to produce a change in the resonance frequency. I recently re-tested one of the basses I used in my original study after the bass had a well done soundpost patch installed at another shop. I was a little surprised when I found the A0 frequency had raised 3 Hz. In terms of A0-B0 matching, this is a significant change. (Close only counts in horseshoes)

BTW - Unless Canadian dust bunnies are a lot different than the ones I see here, they are mostly air.

Jake deVilliers · #16 06-09-2008, 09:10 AM

"BTW - Unless Canadian dust bunnies are a lot different than the ones I see here, they are mostly air."

True enough!

It would be easy enough to stick an endpin in the soundhole next time you test and see if there's a change in frequency.

Bob Branstetter · #17 06-09-2008, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jake deVilliers

"BTW - Unless Canadian dust bunnies are a lot different than the ones I see here, they are mostly air."

True enough!

It would be easy enough to stick an endpin in the soundhole next time you test and see if there's a change in frequency.

I'll try to remember to test with the endpin in and the endpin out next time. Since the size of the ff hoes can change the resonance frequency, I don't think sticking the rod in there would be an accurate method for testing. I usually make sure I have the endpin rod extended to the players normal playing height when testing for A0 since the guys at CAS who did the early research said to do it that way. I assume they had a reason for doing it that way, but it wouldn't hurt to check it out myself next time.

Jake deVilliers · #18 06-09-2008, 01:37 PM

Thanks Bob, that would be a very interesting experiment.

RCWilliams · #19 06-10-2008, 07:29 AM

Bob,
if you're going to check the freq. with the pin in and out, perhaps you should also check its affect at 10 mm intervals and see if there is an optimum frequency or a corolation of excess length inside the body at which dampening is detectable. might be interesting.

Bob Branstetter · #20 06-10-2008, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RCWilliams

Bob,
if you're going to check the freq. with the pin in and out, perhaps you should also check its affect at 10 mm intervals and see if there is an optimum frequency or a corolation of excess length inside the body at which dampening is detectable. might be interesting.

Good idea Rick, but I would only do that after I found there was a significant measurable difference with the rod in and the rod out. However, the "optimum frequency" is the frequency where it exactly matches the resonance frequency of the neck and fingerboard assembly. I'm not really concerned with dampening with A0-B0 matching. Using the endpin rod to change the body resonance frequency (assuming there were a measurable difference with the rod in or out) wouldn't be very practical from the player's point of view especially since changing the resonance frequency of the neck relatively easy and more or less permanent.