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  #1  
Old 03-08-2011, 05:17 AM
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Shortest possible endpin

I keep reading about the benefits of carbon fiber and wood endpins, and while I don't have firsthand experience with the improvement in tone, I'm getting curious. Since I sit on a 24" stool and play sort of cello style, my endpin stays all the way in all the time, and that seems like a lot of dead weight to have stuck up in the bass. What's the easiest way to get the shortest possible endpin (I could still use the stopper) to start experimenting with this?
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  #2  
Old 03-08-2011, 05:31 AM
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Chris, I don't think you're going to find much change in tone since you keep your pin all the way in. It's also pretty subjective whether the change from one endpin material to another is an improvement in anything. On my one bass that I've experimented on, I still like steel the best for jazz pizz.

I recently cut down a very long steel pin to about 8", as I have been sitting for a couple of years now, and I don't notice any change in tone, volume or anything else. I have also used a wood "stub" with a rubber tip on this bass and I think it sounds the same with that.
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  #3  
Old 03-08-2011, 05:51 AM
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Get a 5/8'' oak dowel and some carbon fiber tube of the right diameter to fit into the endpin socket (probably 3/8''). drill through the center of the dowel at about 2'' and glue the carbon fiber in. Since your playing with the endpin all the way in (Traeger advises against this, fyi), you'll probably have to cut the wood to just 1 or 2 inches.
Your bass will thank you for this.

Last edited by aaronallen : 03-08-2011 at 05:56 AM.
  #4  
Old 03-08-2011, 07:21 AM
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Hi Chris,

I have probably spent more effort and life on this than I should have done. I'll offer this in the hopes that you will save some of your time...

All of these comments were true for either pizz or arco, for me.

I would expect your sound to change, but you might not like it better. My modest, limited experience with carbon fiber, wood, or other lightweight pins, tinkering on three basses, is that they seem tend to make the sound brighter and more transparent, with a bit more projection of the upper and upper mid ranges, but that they seem to often cause the volume and "darkness" on the bottom strings, especially the E, to fall off a bit. Even if you just cut off the steel rod to the length you need, you may lose some of the bottom end.

What size pin are you using now? I would try (and have done) experiments with replacing the rod itself, first. If you have one of the common sized pins, you can buy a carbon fiber rod (or ready-made pin) for minimal cash. Here's a link to a retail CF supplier:

http://www.graphitestore.com/items_l...d=34&curPage=3

As far as tinkering with rod length of the steel pin, the local hardware store may have rod you can mess with; hacking off different lengths of 3/8" dia (or whatever) steel rod to approximate endpins of various lengths. (This will save you from cutting your good pin and then wishing you hadn't.)

This is a wacky thing. Not just mass, but actual material characteristics affect sound subtly. I am currently going between two endpins that weigh exactly the same (within .1 gram), but one is carbon steel and one is stainless. Even with the weight being the same, the sound is different.

Here's a link to surefire endpin madness. While this guy is mostly for celli, it gives some idea of the bottomless pit one can fall into:

http://www.frenchcellobow.com/products/endpin.html

Note that he says that Gary Karr is currently using a composite pin made of brass and carbide rod. I priced these; a guy in Japan will happily custom make you one, in any diameter, out of any materials, for roughly $300.

I am currently using a New Harmony endpin socket (lightweight Delrin) with a 1/2" carbon steel rod. I am flirting with a stainless steel rod, too. When I used the CF rod that came as a standard with the New Harmony pin, my bottom end completely fell out; my E string lost all of its "push" and "bottom".

All the pins I have tried in the past six months:

nickel silver solid rod
solid oak dowel
carbon fiber solid rod
hollow steel tube
homebrewed composite, with carbon fiber core inside of a hollow steel rod

Here's a place to send your money if you want to tinker with different metals (they charge a restocking fee, if you return them, BTW):

http://www.onlinemetals.com/

All of the above lighter-weight options had nice, varying brightness, clarity, and projection, but all lost the bottom end volume and fullness on the E string, to varying degrees.

I have seen the same thing happen with a carved New Standard La Scala, fitted with a New Harmony CF/Delrin setup; the E string was weak, where this is not at all typical for those basses, as you know.

So, to summarize, based on my limited, modest experience; one might do well to move slowly with various trial materials, before one commits to a final replacement or into cutting an existing steel pin.

Last edited by Eric Swanson : 03-08-2011 at 07:53 AM.
  #5  
Old 03-08-2011, 07:48 AM
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Eric, are you describing your arco experience with different enpins? A different animal than the jazz pizz playing Chris does.

Did you ever try a titanium rod?
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Last edited by Eric Hochberg : 03-08-2011 at 08:20 AM.
  #6  
Old 03-08-2011, 08:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Fitzgerald View Post
I keep reading about the benefits of carbon fiber and wood endpins, and while I don't have firsthand experience with the improvement in tone, I'm getting curious. Since I sit on a 24" stool and play sort of cello style, my endpin stays all the way in all the time, and that seems like a lot of dead weight to have stuck up in the bass. What's the easiest way to get the shortest possible endpin (I could still use the stopper) to start experimenting with this?
Hacksaw the pin down to the first notch?
  #7  
Old 03-08-2011, 08:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Hochberg View Post
Eric, are you describing your arco experience with different enpins? A different animal than the jazz pizz playing Chris does.

Did you ever try a titanium rod?
This was true, both arco and pizz. The E string volume loss is most noticeable with jazz pizz.

I also lost the percussive "puh" on the front of a jazz pizz note, as well as the E string growl/sustain, with the lighter pins. That was not okay with me...

I didn't try titanium, even though I have heard that some folks like it. Similarly lightweight materials didn't do well on my basses, and the titanium is pricey. Mostly for the sake of my low-end pizz volume and growl, the titanium didn't seem like a likely bet.
  #8  
Old 03-08-2011, 08:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Swanson View Post
Hi Chris,

I have probably spent more effort and life on this than I should have done. I'll offer this in the hopes that you will save some of your time...

.....

So, to summarize, based on my limited, modest experience; one might do well to move slowly with various trial materials, before one commits to a final replacement or into cutting an existing steel pin.

Thanks for the detailed summary, Eric! My God, I don't want to get that deep into it. I just wonder if a shorter pin that doesn't have all the weight and stuff sticking up inside the bass would make much of a difference. What I need, I think, is a little nub of a pin that will still hold onto a tip and a crutch tip for practicality's sake.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iiipopes View Post
Hacksaw the pin down to the first notch?
I thought about this, but I'd need to get another pin to carry around in case I play standing anyway (it's rare, but it happens; on other occasions, folks sometimes sit in), so I was just trying to find out what the options are for little stubby pins. Wood would make sense for a short pin... or I could just saw down a new metal one.
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  #9  
Old 03-08-2011, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by iiipopes View Post
Hacksaw the pin down to the first notch?
Maybe, but it is tough to make it longer again, if he loses the bottom end volume.

I would suggest mocking it up by trying different lengths of inexpensive steel rod, from the hardware store. With $7 worth of steel rod, you could experiment with a bunch of lengths. Find the length that sounds good and still holds the tip, then cut the real rod to length.

This approach is cheap and predictable; just my 2c...

Last edited by Eric Swanson : 03-08-2011 at 09:01 AM.
  #10  
Old 03-08-2011, 09:43 AM
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That's what I did when I experimented with the eggpin.
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