Soundpost issue

MrSidecar · #1 12-12-2009, 03:52 PM

Just a question to experienced bassists and luthiers: Are there soundpost positions that are good for pizz and bad for arco, and vice versa?

As an introduction, I´ve never had any soundpost issues in approx. 10 years with my ex-bass (Otto Rubner, 1946). So I´m quite new when it comes to experience the powers of soundpost positioning. I´m playing spirocore weich, btw.

On my new bass (Hungarian, approx. 1830), everything seemed fantastic. I had an e-string like I´d never heard any before, with almost no effort it growled and was very strong, like the whole bass when playing pizzicato. Lots of volume and sustain. And sweet, somewhat special tone. Arco, I had some spots that responded worse than the rest, but nothing severe (for example, the "c" above the 1st octave on the g-string, a and Bb at the neck joint on the d-string). It could easily be handled with technique.

But the soundpost seemed, to my eye, a little off in the woods. About half of its diameter too far south, and a little off axis with the bridge foot center, towards the center of the bass. At least when I compared it to other basses.
So I went to my luthier, asking him, he said the same. We decided on changing it to "the normal position" (if there is anything like that). Thinking it could only be better than it was already.
But low and behold, that makes a dramatic difference! The result, after a week of thorough testing:

-The whole bass sounds more even, maybe more "neutral". That's basically a good thing.
-BUT: WAAY more boring pizz sound as well. E-string in particular lost sustain, volume and growl, the whole bass lost some character, overall, less sustain, and I think less volume also.
-Strings came down slightly.
-Arco: 5 times better response, sounds amazing! Easy as never before. NO weaker spots anymore.

Now I wonder, am I being psychic about the whole thing, or is this realistic? I was always assuming that while there might be different preferences for classical and jazz players, and to some extend different fingerboard/action setups, the soundpost position was more or less style-independent.

I´m considering going back to the unorthodox placement because I liked it better for pizz.

I might just have too much time to worry about it, after all.

(Long post, but that's nothing new for me, and the actual question mark is right at the top).

Thanks for any thoughts on this.

Best
Sidecar

William Hoffman · #2 12-13-2009, 09:22 AM

Mathias

when i got my Gruenert '93, it had a soundpost that was too short and was positioned further out, towards the f-hole. that was where it fit, given its length. it was also about 1.5 SP diameters below the bridge foot.

i didn't know how good the bass could sound until i got a SP that fits well in the "neutral" position. right away the sound was clearer, crisper, both pizz and arco. the overall sound of the bass with Spiro Mittels (+Stark E) is vastly improved, it zings and rings and has lots of punch.

btw, i hope you marked the old unorthodox spot where you had it before, with a pencil or somehow, so you can find the old position again.

Bill

Eric Hochberg · #3 12-13-2009, 10:01 AM

I have no personal experiences to add, but in his book, luthier Chuck Traeger talks about a bass that came into his shop, sounded great and had a SP in an unorthodox position. He moved, or made, a post to fit in the traditional way and the bass lost its sound. Put the old post back in as it was and the sound came back.

robobass · #4 12-14-2009, 03:23 AM

The SP in my Geiger was way out to the side. I recently had a new post cut to sit in the "normal" position. The bass is louder overall, but the A string just sucks now. Any note on it is hard to bow, and muddy with pizz. I'm definitely going back to the old post/position. Any thoughts? I should mention that it has an exceptionally wide top with very thin ribs. Perhaps an unconventional shape requires unconventional placement?

William Hoffman · #5 12-14-2009, 05:41 AM

I can relate to that. My SP was way out there too, like almost a whole SP diameter outside the bridge foot. Now it's directly in line with the center of the bridge foot.

Putting the new SP in the new position definitely changed the sound of the A string. It seems that moving/refitting the SP to a spot closer to the E string side -- even just a few mm -- can affect above all the A string, cutting its volume a bit. On mine it also made the bass overall sound clearer.

wayne holmes · #6 12-15-2009, 09:54 AM

IMO and IME-- I would install a new sound post-don't ask me why...

wayne holmes · #7 12-15-2009, 09:54 AM

do it with lots of bass luv

drurb · #8 12-15-2009, 10:07 AM

Ah, the mysteries of sound-post positions. There are some rules of thumb that may interact with the sound you desire and your style. For example, pushing the SP a bit south of the "usual" position will tend to make a bass sound "darker." This is just a generalization as every bass is different. When you find a position that makes you happy, ask your luthier to mark it and then leave it alone. Given that you're not quite happy, what Wayne suggests seems to make sense. That is, start with a new post and experiment a bit with your luthier.

Eric Hochberg · #9 12-15-2009, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robobass

The SP in my Geiger was way out to the side. I recently had a new post cut to sit in the "normal" position. The bass is louder overall, but the A string just sucks now. Any note on it is hard to bow, and muddy with pizz. I'm definitely going back to the old post/position. Any thoughts? I should mention that it has an exceptionally wide top with very thin ribs. Perhaps an unconventional shape requires unconventional placement?

I played a V&G at Bill Merchant's shop a few years ago. I was really impressed with the big sound of that thin ribbed bass. Bill might have something to add on this.

robobass · #10 12-16-2009, 03:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ehochberg

I played a V&G at Bill Merchant's shop a few years ago. I was really impressed with the big sound of that thin ribbed bass. Bill might have something to add on this.

Bill is the one who setup the bass when I got it in '95! New FB, brought out the neck, and placed the post in that strange way. It appears he knew what he was doing. I need to ask my guy here if he saved that old post. I think I saw the Geiger you mention, or maybe you saw mine. Mine isn't super thin like some. Ribs are about 14cm.

Eric Hochberg · #11 12-16-2009, 11:37 AM

Small world, I don't think it was your bass as it was for sale, as far as I remember.

BassLove_ · #12 12-17-2009, 09:00 AM

I replace my soundpost every 5 years like clockwork cause it starts to sound bad if I dont do that. I never been able to get ten years from one but funny thing is that it seems to be better if i use someone elses old post instead of a new one.

wayne holmes · #13 12-17-2009, 09:07 AM

Now, that's strange. When you change the oil in your bassmobile, do you say- please use oil that doesn't have over 50,000 miles on it?

just kidding- to each his own

with lots of bass love, Basslove

BassLove_ · #14 12-17-2009, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wayne holmes

Now, that's strange. When you change the oil in your bassmobile, do you say- please use oil that doesn't have over 50,000 miles on it?

just kidding- to each his own

with lots of bass love, Basslove

yeah dont know why it works but it does. I usually get a bunch of em and drop em on a tile floor looking for one that pings near F#. an old bass guy turned me on to that and it seems to work out but dont knoww why

wayne holmes · #15 12-17-2009, 06:06 PM

please tell me that you are just kidding Basslove-and I thought that I was the expert on sound posts. Do you need any used sound posts-I have several-what shade of dirt would you like-and how many mms long-dia.? I've have been using them for firewood, but I'll save them for you-if you want. Love your name Basslove-with lots of it. wayne

BassLove_ · #16 12-17-2009, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wayne holmes

please tell me that you are just kidding Basslove-and I thought that I was the expert on sound posts. Do you need any used sound posts-I have several-what shade of dirt would you like-and how many mms long-dia.? I've have been using them for firewood, but I'll save them for you-if you want. Love your name Basslove-with lots of it. wayne

Kidding? nice of you to offer but I have over 100 posts collected so I'm set for life it seems

Of course I was kidding-- the whole thing was a joke.

William Hoffman · #17 12-19-2009, 01:53 PM

in his OP, Mathias was asking about SP position and what differences it can produce. that is a valid topic.

now we've gone into the same issue that caused so much grief over in that other thread with the backandforth about changing the SP every so often.

Kee-rist, let it be. This is a waste of time. I'm gone.

Bassalova · #18 12-21-2009, 06:43 PM

Hi Guys.

just a little suggestion here, regarding soundposts. I guess my topic has been called up on the forum earlier, but what the heck....

What would a graphite soundpost sound like? It is a stable material, and lightweight. Might be an effective conductor of vibrations from the top to the back. And it would last forever, since graphite don't age like wood do.

What say you?

**Matthew Tucker** · #19 12-21-2009, 07:08 PM

Graphite - not nice for luthier to work with, and expensive if you muck it up and have to start a new post. sometimes you can go through 3-4 blanks if the arching is high and you're trying a lot of different positions.

But i reckon it would work just fine.

wayne holmes · #20 12-26-2009, 04:07 PM

William-then why are you bringing it up? A few people disagreed about SPs- I got banned for what I said-we probably still disagree- "grief"- I would hate to go into a warzone with you if something like this gives you or anyone else grief. Please observe-I have not initiated any conversation about the past issue, but if someone brings it up or hints at it, as you have, I will respond. However, if I did bring it up, it would have been in a jokingly way. Respectfully, wayne.

Chris, you might as well go ahead and get it over with-I'm a big boy-I can take it

"grief"-is what our military members are experiencing who are away from their families during the holidays.
When you spend 4 holiday seasons away from your family, 2 of them in a warzone, then you may talk to me about grief.
Fair Winds and Following Seas!--Semper Fi!

Basslove - just had to get me started --- didn't you?