Strad Thread?

[Eric Rene Roy]

So...a thread with good discussion gets the ax because a few can't play nice? I think thats the first thread in a while that got me posting...

[Cody Sisk]

I asked about it in PM's to Chris and he said that since the thread was started by a certain individual who got all his posts deleted, it in turn deletes the entire thread.

Perhaps we should start all over?

Edit: I liked your last few posts Eric, it seems you know quite a bit about the Stradivari family. Would you be willing and able to regurgitate any of that info?

[Darkstrike]

That thread was actually very interesting too...

[drurb]

Originally Posted by Eric Rene Roy

So...a thread with good discussion gets the ax because a few can't play nice? I think thats the first thread in a while that got me posting...

As I recall, only one wasn't playing nice. Eric, don't you save all your posts like I do?

[Paul Warburton]

The Moderators were doing their jobs by closing that down, especially with the OP being the "certain individual" that Cory is alluding to.
That's had to be done a few times here lately.

I'm all for "playing nice", but when an obvious whack case busts in to try to ruin it for everybody involved I report to the Mods right away, as did several people involved in that thread.
Starting over would be nice.....

[fdeck]

I've got a copy of the research article, but have not read it carefully yet. The executive summary is that there is nothing magical about Strad's varnishes, just readily available materials and tip-top workmanship. They sampled from a number of "museum piece" instruments to steer clear of the confounding effects of usage and repair.

The authors took tiny chips that could be viewed from the side to reveal the composition of individual layers and pigment particles, going down into the grain structure of the wood.

More in a couple days.

[Eric Rene Roy]

Originally Posted by Paul Warburton

The Moderators were doing their jobs by closing that down, especially with the OP being the "certain individual" that Cory is alluding to.
That's had to be done a few times here lately.

I'm all for "playing nice", but when an obvious whack case busts in to try to ruin it for everybody involved I report to the Mods right away, as did several people involved in that thread.
Starting over would be nice.....

I don't want to second guess the mods or the pressure they get to react to group requests...it's a thankless job and it's easy to second guess decisions after the fact. That guy was a whack job and I see no benefit from his participation, it takes away from TB when guys like him and your recent nemesis act the way they do. I just think a thread could be more surgically cleaned up rather than nuking the whole thing.

If I get a splinter tomorrow at the shop, I will remove the splinter, not cut off my finger.

[Eric Rene Roy]

Originally Posted by DallasStrings

Edit: I liked your last few posts Eric, it seems you know quite a bit about the Stradivari family. Would you be willing and able to regurgitate any of that info?

Strad was pounded into our heads like crazy in violinmaking school, and rightly so. But where I got hooked on him was the volume of work he produced...and how one man could do it without power tools and limited working hours. What I believe is Strad was a production workshop...a very very very good one. He was a modern maker striving to meet the demands of musicians to fill larger concert halls. He earned a good name for himself early on and he capitalized on his name by turning a one man shop into a many man shop. Seeing the route I have decided to take with my own instrument making...what he did marvels me.

I wrote this last year about Strad and large workshops. I don't think that's a violation of the CUP...nothing is for sale there...

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Sorry fellas. Sometimes ya gotta do what ya gotta do. And the fact remains that when you delete the original post in a thread, the whole thing's gone. Likewise, when an entire account is deleted, and the user created a few threads...

Now, if someone else who plans to stick around would care to start a thread on the same topic and it gets derailed, I promise to whip out me surgical gloves & scalpel before editing. Yesiree.

[Darkstrike]

Originally Posted by Eric Rene Roy

What I believe is Strad was a production workshop...a very very very good one. He was a modern maker striving to meet the demands of musicians to fill larger concert halls.

I believe this was where the thread finished up, its funny, unlike most violin guys today, rooted in tradition, the legends, like Strad, were working on modernising their stuff, and looking towards where music was going, the larger concert halls and such.


Makes me think, that we could see a lot of intesting, and great sounding new instruments, if more luthiers looked forwards, rather than back...

[Eric Rene Roy]

Originally Posted by Darkstrike

Makes me think, that we could see a lot of intesting, and great sounding new instruments, if more luthiers looked forwards, rather than back...

And that, Darkstrike, is why I LOVE bass making. Bass makers have a LOT more freedom to play around...and you don't have to look far to see this fact. I also personally think the bass is a couple hundred years off the violin path...meaning not too long ago these things still had 3 strings...and many numbers are still not standardized! Bassists today are playing Bach cello suites regularly...I see young kids belting them out on laminated basses on the showroom floor. The demands of double bassists today are pushing bass makers to advance the art. This is the beginning of the golden period of the Double Bass!

[Cody Sisk]

I was fortunate to find this thread still opened in an earlier form on my home computer. Here's what I salvaged:

Flanning:

People have been trying to figure out the secret the the strads for a long time. All this study did was use a microscope and chemical analysis to finally determine to varnish used. So...he used a simple recipe. Sounds pretty much like most makers of the era. Why does it make you so angry to find out that his varnish isn't the secret?

Maybe we can move on from that now and stop trying to add ground cat bones or one of the other millions of crazy things I've heard of violin makers putting in their varnish.

Arnold:

It's been reported that in Cremona in the 17th and 18th centuries, instrument makers (and furniture makers) would go to their local apothecary and buy their varnish. The proprietor would have pre-made batches ready in different recipes and colors. The primary ingredients were linseed and/or walnut oils, and various resins. Some were colored with natural pigments. These were slow-drying, hence most violin makers varnished in the Spring or Summer, so they could put their fiddles out in the Sun for some UV curing. Violin enthusiasts tend toward the geeky, and for many years have been convinced that Stradivarius and his contemporaries had a "secret" that has subsequently been lost. Was it "pickling" the wood in the filthy canals of Venice? A special mineral slurry forced into the pores of the wood? A truly secret varnish recipe? Special wood from the North side of a South-facing mountain, under which truffles have been growing?

I don't think so. I think Strad, Amati, and their squad were very talented makers and musicians. They had access to the best old-growth woods from the Alps and elsewhere. They imbued their instruments with good workmanship, put on a pretty varnish, used their excellent ears to adjust them well, and probably destroyed the ones that didn't sound good. Then a few centuries of aging helped make the tone magnificent (of course they sounded good from day one), and today they are regarded as the finest violins, violas, cellos and basses ever created. And they are. But all the mumble-jumble over some unobtainable secret that died with these makers is nothing but a crock IMHO.

ctregan:

This is the study "eli d" was talking about, and the results.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/04/sc...?_r=1&emc=eta1

Some people assumed, Stradivarius used a secret ground coat on his instruments, this study disproves that notion.

Nathan Parker quoting Arnold:

Well said, Arnold. I think I agree with your opinion. A great deal of skill, access to wonderful materials and probably a dash of luck. Now, you do use a secret recipe on the varnish on your instruments, right?

fdeck:

I'm going to get the research article from Angewandte Chemie, as I have always been curious about what analytical techniques can be used on instrument finishes.

Square Bear:
i think you can also consider the fact that these instruments have been continually played by great musicians over their lifetime. they have been broken in and opened up under the best possible circumstances. put all these variables together over the course of hundreds of years and you should expect that the result will be a truly exceptional instrument.

uprightben:

Originally Posted by Eric Rene Roy
also add in that these were the best instruments available even then...bought and owned by the wealthiest patrons for use by the best musicians. They have been adjusted, repaired, restored and modernized by the best luthiers since the day they were made.

This is true, but one shouldn't forget that Stainer was considered the very best during Strad's lifetime. His instruments were not as powerful, but had a sweeter tone which was considered more valuable then (it was a quiter time). It wasn't until the mid 18th C. that Strads and the other Cremona makers came to prominence, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that it wasn't until people started to reset the necks to be longer and at a greater angle that Strad and company became the best of the best.

One of the best things about basses, IMHO, is that Strad never made one. Makers of violins and 'cellos will always have thier work compared to the legend of Stradivarius, which, unlike his actual instruments, is impossible to compete with.

[Darkstrike]

Originally Posted by Eric Rene Roy

And that, Darkstrike, is why I LOVE bass making. Bass makers have a LOT more freedom to play around...and you don't have to look far to see this fact. I also personally think the bass is a couple hundred years off the violin path...meaning not too long ago these things still had 3 strings...and many numbers are still not standardized! Bassists today are playing Bach cello suites regularly...I see young kids belting them out on laminated basses on the showroom floor. The demands of double bassists today are pushing bass makers to advance the art. This is the beginning of the golden period of the Double Bass!

It really is a young instrument yet, compared to violins, and so on, isn't it?

I assume another huge advantage to bass building, as I think was mentioned in the orginal thread, you don't have the legend of Strad looking over your shoulder, everyone thinking, "well, it'll never be as good as......"***

*** Edit: And there it is, and it was you yourself that said it, Thanks DallasStrings, for popping that stuff back up.

[Cody Sisk]

I also shared my own experience in the first thread which I will reiterate here:

When I used to work for another violin shop, Chee Yun came in with her strad. She was nice enough to let us nerdy, salivating luthiers take a look at it. She plays the Stradivarius "Ex-Strauss" (Cremona, 1708), which is on loan to her from Samsung.

She came in looking for a clear, thick mylar tape that they use to line the outside of the C-bouts to protect the instrument from an accidental ferrule clip when the soloists really dig in. I told her "sorry, but we don't have any priceless instruments in our inventory to warrant carrying that sort of thing."

I got to hold the instrument for a brief amount of time. Nevermind the 3+ million dollar price tag, I was totally captivated. The instrument seemed to have some sort of aura around it. To touch something that was crafted by Stradivari himself was a near religious experience for me. Just hearing the immediate response the wood gave by simply running my fingers over the grains was amazing in itself..

I have to agree with what Eric said in the original thread. The simplest answers are the best. I believe there was nothing unusual about the construction of these instruments compared to modern methods, but given the fact that these treasures have been meticulously cared for by wealthy patrons over several generations has to have an effect on their value.

[Paul Warburton]

Besides the stuff mentioned already, I think being a bass luthier today is, well, being a bass luthier. Makers of our instrument, mostly....at least the most well known are bass makers.
In those days of the great Italian Luthiers didn't really like making basses for obvious reasons. They took up too much wood, they took up too much room in their shops and tools had to be made to speed up the process. More material and time added up to less money.
The famous players of the other instruments of the violin family were, at least many of them, well know known vituosi who had patrons...as Eric said...who would actually pop for a new instrument for them. The bass, except for Dragonetti, wasn't known for it's virtuoustic qualities back then.

Maybe I could find some rich beauty to pop fer a Schnitzer?
(Scratch beauty).

[fdeck]

The fact that Strad never made basses doesn't seem to have prevented the manufacturing of "copies."

[Eric Rene Roy]

Originally Posted by DallasStrings

...Chee Yun came in with her strad. She was nice enough to let us nerdy, salivating luthiers take a look at it. She plays the Stradivarius "Ex-Strauss" (Cremona, 1708), which is on loan to her from Samsung.

True then, true now. Owned by the wealthiest, played by the best.

[AMJBASS]

Originally Posted by fdeck

The fact that Strad never made basses doesn't seem to have prevented the manufacturing of "copies."

This is something I find amusing as well... copies of what, is what I would like to ask them.

I dig this thread. I didn't get a chance to read the entire previously deleted one. I have always held that the really good modern string instrument makers can and do build the best instruments ever made. With the amount of research that has been done, and the VAST wealth of information available not to mention the quality of tools and materials available today, I think in time there will be many instruments from this time that will rank up there with the best.

This doesn't stop me from wanting a Panormo by the way

[Cody Sisk]

I plan on building a panormo copy.

[Eric Rene Roy]

Originally Posted by DallasStrings

I plan on building a panormo copy.

not to rain on your parade...but why not choose something more ergonomic (it doesn't have to have a modern outline like Arnold's, it can have traditional lines)...or better yet take everything you believe and design your own.