A string E string switch

[klem.gote]

Hi. After reading many of the posts in the Strings forum I switched where I tune my E and A strings. (My A string has been driving me nuts, no sound!!) While I may have lost a little bit of sound from the E, the A really opened up a lot. I'm sure there could be many reason for the change, my question is, could it be an indication that maybe the nut needs to be looked at? I've owned the bass for 35 years and it wasn't new when I bought it so I have no idea the last time the nut may have been worked on. I'd appreciate any thoughts, thanks!!

[kurt ratering]

do you mean you ran the A string to the E tuning machine and the E string to the A machine?

[klem.gote]

Yes, there was some talk in a String forum thread of doing that, some of the talk was about the angle of the string going over the nut as well as some talk of the "fanned" method of stringing a bass. Here's the link, scroll down to post #18:

Changing strings

As I said it opened up the A string quite a bit, just wondering if it could be an issue with the nut, maybe a new one might help the whole bass.

[Jake deVilliers]

I don't think its your nut, I think it has to do with the changed tension from lengthening/shortening the strings.
It has worked on all the basses I've tried it on to date - plywood, hybrid and carved.

Be happy your bass sounds better for free!

[dchan]

Last October or so, I had my bass fixed up and setup by Jeff Bollbach. His work was truly fantastic, and my bass sounded and played better than ever. I however, neglected to get my fingerboard planed and dressed because it was a bit out of my budget at the time.

I ran into a few problems afterwards, however:
- Jeff noted that there were a couple of high spots on the fingerboard in thumb position on the G string. These high spots came to haunt me later as the colder weather came around.
- the G string, a Flexocor, was noticeably more nasally than any Flexocor that I have played. I had acquired it used, and it was nasally on other basses as well.
- The high spots tended to hit the G string when the string was bowed. I believe they acted as harmonics and caused the G string to squeak and squeal badly.
- My A string....was just not there. It didn't play particularly well with the bow, and it required a good deal of bow pressure to get it to vibrate with the bow. It also sounded pretty dull.
- The G on the D string had a terrible wolf tone.
- Thumb position was still pretty hard to play on the bass.

1. So I had first tried to change my G string to an old Helicore G I had around - it was even worse. So I put the Flexocor back on.

2. Next, I lowered the E to a low D. This relieved a lot of the tension on the bass, and made it easier to play all around. It also made the bass more sonorous and full-sounding overall. But the other problems still remained.

3. When I finally had enough of the squeaky and buzzing G string, I decided to get a new Flexocor G. But then, I raised the bridge adjusters, and both the squeaks and rattles were gone. That problem was solved; however, the rest of the problems remained, and the bass was now a tad harder to play - that said, it was also easier to play without a squeaky and buzzing G string bothering me.

4. I had stopped playing for a while, as it was a bit discouraging to play my bass. I had always wanted to swap the E and A strings from their respective pegs, and I even wanted to tell Jeff to do it for me when I picked up my bass last October. But I figured at that time: why fix what wasn't broken?

Today, I decided to make the switch....and the difference has been nothing short of stupendous - almost all my problems have been fixed. Let's hope it stays that way. *cross my fingers*

With the E (low D, actually) and A switched, I believe the bass has much lower tension before overall. And it shows while playing: thumb position has been almost a breeze, and I managed to get in close to 2 hours of practice because it was so much easier to play now.

The A string, which was once difficult to bow, is much easier to bow. It still sound a bit dull, just less dull.

The bad wolf tone I had gotten whenever I bowed the G on the D string....was totally gone. Or hidden. Whatever it is.

But the biggest change was on my G string. Previously, it sounded nasally when bowed on almost any position. Now? It merely sounds bright, which is much, much more tolerable.




Who knew that swapping those two strings could do so much! Perhaps there are other reasons why everything changed for the better. I don't know.

Soundwise, the bass has a bit less volume, I feel, up close. Dunno what it sounds like further away. But it's a tradeoff that I'm definitely willing to live with.

[klem.gote]

That's very interesting!! Especially the lowering of the E string to D, I might try that just to see if it affects the rest of my bass at all. When I switched my A and E strings I did lose just a little sound on the E, but nothing I can't live with, and it did seem to open the other strings some, especially my A, which had NO sound before. Now it's ringing pretty good. If it's a result of reducing the tension on the bass a little I wonder if perhaps that's a sign the sound post might be a little tight?

[dchan]

I had switched the E and A strings before, but on a different bass. That bass had a weak A string as well, and the switch made the notes 'pop' more and sound more articulate. IMO, the problem with the A is that it always tends to be too floppy. Shortening its afterlength and sharpening the angle of its afterlength tightens the string.

I've played my bass a little more after I wrote my post. Soloing has never been easier! Seriously - the bow just dances on the string and music comes out. Good music. Before, I got too much squeaking and lousy sounding notes, and I thought it was simply me. Heck, it might still be I who was at fault. I was so surprised how good I sounded, that I played for almost two hours straight.

Orchestral excerpts are much easier now as well - that means that the lower positions are easier to play as well.

[cadence]

Question - I changed my A and E as an experiment and it is an interesting change. The A does speak better while the E is alright for arco but a bit slappy with pizz. This is with a full set of belcantos by the way.

I am thinking of other E's I have around and I am wondering...I have a low C from an obligato 5th set that I actually had tuned up to an E on a Kay for a short time. The current bass though is a hybrid and I don't want to hurt the top. Would tuning that up to E with the looser tension of the E + A swap be viable or might it hurt the bass?

[dchan]

^ Tuning a C up by two whole steps would probably be a bit too much IMO. The lowest strings tend to have the highest tension at pitch, and even if it's strung at a higher peg position (longer afterlength), it's still probably not a good idea to tune it up to an even higher tension - that goes for the string and for the bass. Then again, I'm not a luthier, so what do I know?

It might be a better idea to tune it up to low D rather than a low E. I think the key to the switch is lower tension on the bass, overall. So tuning a low C up to a low E kinda negates that advantage.

You might consider getting a beefier E string than the Belcanto E (which I hear isn't too thick) for the switch. I use an older Helicore Orchestral E along with Flexocor medium A-D-G. I suspect that the Helicore has gotten thicker with age, and it works pretty well even when tuned down to a low D.

[cadence]

Well I did try the Obligato low C in the reversed position. It was a very loose string (too loose imo)in it's standard peg at C so I thought it might be a good candidate. First I took it up to D and that put it at about the same tension as the other strings. Seeing that I took it up to E and it does have a bit more tension than the other strings now but wow does it sound good. It actually opened up some of the other strings more too for some reason, perhaps because there is now more pressure on the top and the Belcantos are not very high tension?

I will keep a close eye on it to make sure nothing bad develops. The neck on this bass is a log so I don't think the neck will be a problem. I am thinking with the people that use stark Spiros that this can't be adding more tension overall than some other setups out there, but if there is a luthier or someone who might have a guess I would be curious to hear if you think it is a terrible thing for the bass (having belcantos on the G D and A and the once loose obligato tuned up to an E). The action is also fairly low as this bass is for chamber music and not orchestral playing.

I hope it works because it is a great sound.

e: Changed back to the original E but also opted for the complete peg swap; I will need to get used to it before I can objectively judge the sound.

[smg_luthier]

hey klem,
in my opinion, and from my experience, the nut is like the clitoris of any set-up.
it is physically the smallest part, it is the most overlooked and neglected part, it is the most important part if you want it to feel good (for the other person), and you realy need to pay attention to it if you want it to sing and moan for you. ( all of this from a repair tech's point of view.)
shortening the length of the "A" string behind the nut will slightly increase tension on the string, and depending on the string, can open it up or deaden it, or not have much of a difference at all.
if it works for you, go with it.
on almost every bass i do, i have to completely re-work the nut. sometimes, i can't believe the difference in volume & tone.
it took me about 10 years to learn how to get a nut just right. i thought i had a pretty good idea about 15 or 16 years ago. i was on the right trac. if you ask me 10 years from now, i'm sure i'll know better, even though i think i've got it close to perfect now...

anyway, just because one thing helps doesn't mean that something else won't also help.
just my 2 cents.
smg

[robobass]

I just want to chime in about the "tension" comments. Aside from changes in mensure or tuning, STRING TENSION DOES NOT CHANGE!!!. What does change in this case is the amount and direction of force on the nut. Switching the E and A does have an effect on string response, but it is related to these force vectors, not the tension of the string itself. I totally agree with SMUG that the nut is often neglected. Improper break angle and notch shape will prevent the string from mating properly to the neck, and a badly carved groove will affect tuning ease and string longevity.

If switching the E and A floats your boat, then go for it! It is probably better for the E-String anyway, which in many cases is being bent too much. But, take a good look at your nut while you're at it. It probably could use some attention.

Now my challenge: I have four bold statements about string tension. Please tell me if I am wrong. Explain why, of course!
1. Break angle at nut affects only the force of the string on the nut, not string tension.
2. String length from nut to tuner may have some small resonance issues, but does not affect string tension.
3. Changes to bridge or saddle height affect top tension, but do not affect string tension.
4. Afterlength - The biggest misconception of all - String length from tailpiece to bridge may affect resonance, but in absolutely no way affects string tension OR down force on the top.

I only got a "C" in Engineering Mechanics 210, but I really think I am right here!

[Jake deVilliers]

String tension definitely DOES change.

The string tension encompasses the entire length of the suspended string from tuner shaft to saddle. The whole assembly is tightened as you twist the tuner knob. Basses that are very long from bridge to saddle can be much stiffer to play than those with shorter bridge/saddle lengths.

So it follows that you can alter the tension on an individual string by adjusting its length via re-assignment in the pegbox. You should try it sometime, its very educational.

If you fit a taller bridge, you increase the total length, thus increasing string tension.
If you fit a taller saddle you shorten total length, thus lowering tension.

Both of these changes also change the tension on the top and the tuning of the afterlengths and the tailpiece assembly - there's a lot of interwoven results from one change unless you try hard to isolate that single change.

The afterlengths have a large effect on the feel of the bass but I agree with you that the string tension doesn't actually change - it just feels as though it has.

I hope I'm making sense here. I don't know how to write about this stuff really, I just know how to make it work.

[DavidMP]

Originally Posted by Jake deVilliers

String tension definitely DOES change.

[...]

The afterlengths have a large effect on the feel of the bass but I agree with you that the string tension doesn't actually change - it just feels as though it has.

I think you are using the word tension in two senses and this is confusing.

Tension is transmitted though a string and remains the same all throughout the string as long as it is not binding at the the nut or bridge.
Tension is related to pitch by the formula

where f=frequency, L = length from nut to bridge, T = tension and miu = linear density of the string (assumed constant)
So, if the instrument is tuned to pitch, the speaking length of the string has not increased and you are using the same string the tension is still the same.
TENSION DOES NOT CHANGE

The rest of your argument is also valid, but you are referring to stiffness or feel of the string (i.e. how much force is needed to produce a given deflection of the taut string).

STIFFNESS DOES CHANGE

There is no way that changing the length between the bridge and tailpiece does not change the tension but the length between the nut and tuner does.

Cheers

David

[arnoldschnitzer]

Originally Posted by DavidMP

There is no way that changing the length between the bridge and tailpiece does not change the tension but the length between the nut and tuner does.

Huh?

[DavidMP]

arnoldschnitzer

Huh?

This is what I'm talking about

Jake deVilliers
[...] So it follows that you can alter the tension on an individual string by adjusting its length via re-assignment in the pegbox [...]
[...] The afterlengths have a large effect on the feel of the bass but I agree with you that the string tension doesn't actually change [...]

These arguments are mutually exclusive.

I however think that I understand what Jake is saying if we make a distinction between tension and stiffness.

[arnoldschnitzer]

Please read your sentence again. It makes no sense. I think there is an extra word in there.

[DavidMP]

Originally Posted by arnoldschnitzer

Please read your sentence again. It makes no sense. I think there is an extra word in there.

proposition A: change in string length between nut and tuner = tension change
proposition B: change in string length between bridge and tailpiece = no tension change
Since they both are the same phenomenon (change of length after the fulcrum that determines speaking length) we can represent this as a logic AND so that

Proposition A AND NOT(Proposition B)

What part of mutually exclusive am I missing?

[Gearhead43]

Originally Posted by arnoldschnitzer

Huh?

HAHA.

I think this run-on sentence has a dangling participle.

[ADissen]

I was bored so I gave it a try. I have GDA Belcantos with a Spiro Weich E and the A string was not matching the G and D strings in terms of volume and articulation with off the string strokes. (Why break a set of Belcantos with the Weich E? Because I didn't have enough money to buy the Bel E string. But as it turns out a 3.5 year old weich with 2 years of playing is a nice string indeed and im happy with the combo.) But anyways, the most significant changes in sound were in the E and G strings. The E lost tension and gained a more airy, full tone, so that was good. But the G string did the opposite, feels like more tension and the sound got a little tighter. The A string did change for the better, but the change wasn't as significant as the E and G. The jury is out on whether the A and E will stay switched.