String Length/Neck Stop ??

[KSB - Ken Smith]

What is your favorite String length and why?

The average is 41" - 42" but many Basses fall under and over especially older Basses and some smaller ones.

Also, what is your favorite Neck/Heel stop, D or Eb?

Moving the Bridge up or down by the F-notch area does affect this stop as well.

[M Ramsey]

Originally Posted by KSB - Ken Smith

What is your favorite String length and why?

The average is 41" - 42" but many Basses fall under and over especially older Basses and some smaller ones.

Also, what is your favorite Neck/Heel stop, D or Eb?

Moving the Bridge up or down by the F-notch area does affect this stop as well.

Ken, my two basses are the (dreaded) American Standards with a 43" string length. My hands are rather big and I have adapted to this scale fairly well. I have enough trouble with innotation as it is and I try not to contribute to my madness by staying with this scale.

I had a Gretch Tone King bass (basically a Kay) and it had the 41.5" scale. I tried to move the bridge down to get it more in line with the American Standard scale, but found that it wouldn't work. So, while the old Standard bass was out of commission due to the neck joint loosening, I played the Gretch exclusively. When the Standard was repaired, I made the switch back to the long scale. But, knowing that tons of 43" basses weren't available on a moment's notice, I found another Standard to have as a backup in an emergency situation.

I've played some other basses that I've absolutely loved, one being Mark Schatz's old carved bass years ago. A very fine setup on a very fine old carved bass. It played like butter.

I've got enough other more important bills which keeps my bass acquisition syndrome in check.

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Carved Basses with 43" string length seem to be much less desirable these days and hard to sell. The first thing I look at is for a way to shorten it to 42" or under. I prefer about 41.5-41.75 myself. My Gilkes is barely 41" now but my Martini and Hart are at my preferred lengths. My Cornerless Bass is over 44". I have played jobs back to back from under 41" to over 44" in a single week or a day apart. I just warm up and adjust as needed.

For marketing Basses today to Orchestra players 42" seems to be the maximum. I see mostly 41.25-41.75" string lengths on old Basses today that have been restored and set-up for modern Orchestra players.

While the 'D-Neck' Heel seems to be the preferred standard, I happen to like the 'Eb-Neck' just as much if not more when I can find one. The Eb-Neck also means a longer string length along with it. My Hart is a true Eb while my Gilkes is a D. I might just have to choose between them, the master (Glikes), or his apprentice (Hart). Neither Neck is original to the Bass and with the Gilkes being Cut, there is no way of knowing what it was like originally with either Bass. A Morelli I had recently had the original Neck and about a 44" string length. With a block-cut and cheating the Bridge forward, we got it down to 42 3/8". Still, it was long especially for playing Beethoven's 5th with fingering the low C extension... Ouch!

On the shorter length while recently playing Beethoven's 6th, I had to do all the lower notes in the storm section on the extension. Having a slightly shorter stretch made it easier playing all those low 16th notes at 'light speed'. I worked on it for almost 5 months just to get those two 2-bar sections down on the extension. It was a real education. Most parts now look easy in comparison after that.

[Steve Swan]

I like 42 1/8 - 1/4" for gut strings. It gives the strings enough pull to make the top move. I played a 42 3/4" bass on a gig or two and my hands were very unhappy. I like a D neck and a 44 1/2" - 46" top length to make the money notes rumble.

[forester]

timely question... i have a 3/4 carved,with a 40.25" SL. This is via a nut that overlaps the fingerboard 1", installed many years ago to perhaps shorten the scale.If i replace the nut with the standard setup it will be 41.25".
So...my ques is. It is a D neck now ( which i like ) by returning to the stock set up will it change? Even with this short SL it does not feel crowded and lets face it it's still a reach for your average hand. the bass is 171 yrs. original neck,fingerboard and nut maybe 50/60 yrs judging from repair sticker inside. thanks

[Matthew Tucker]

The D position will move 1/3 inch towards the nut. Depending on how accurate the heel stop is now, it may or may not make a real difference. You might just have to adjust your reference point a little bit. Otherwise you could cheat your bridge northwards a bit.

[anonymous12251111]

Originally Posted by KSB - Ken Smith

What is your favorite String length and why?

The average is 41" - 42" but many Basses fall under and over especially older Basses and some smaller ones.

Also, what is your favorite Neck/Heel stop, D or Eb?

Moving the Bridge up or down by the F-notch area does affect this stop as well.

Ken, I've found with much trial and error that a bass with a string length of 41-41.5" with a D neck that is very thin and well set up suits me best. I can play quite comfortably with a four finger technique and pivoting with a string length up to 41.5", the real significance is not the mensure but how the neck feels against my thumb and if the nut height is appropriate.

I was playing a small solo bass with a string length of 38", after a brief stint with that I've gone back to my large orchestral bass which has a modest string length of 41" and I find the larger bass easier to play. My hand size is small BUT with a small mensure my hand position became really loose and messy resulting in poor intonation and less technical accuracy

I've found that most jazz basses from circa 1900 have an Eb neck, I really feel lost with it, and I don't feel that I could ever really go back and forth. I'm very comfortable with a D neck.

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Calvin Marks

Ken, I've found with much trial and error that a bass with a string length of 41-41.5" with a D neck that is very thin and well set up suits me best. I can play quite comfortably with a four finger technique and pivoting with a string length up to 41.5", the real significance is not the mensure but how the neck feels against my thumb and if the nut height is appropriate.

I was playing a small solo bass with a string length of 38", after a brief stint with that I've gone back to my large orchestral bass which has a modest string length of 41" and I find the larger bass easier to play. My hand size is small BUT with a small mensure my hand position became really loose and messy resulting in poor intonation and less technical accuracy

I've found that most jazz basses from circa 1900 have an Eb neck, I really feel lost with it, and I don't feel that I could ever really go back and forth. I'm very comfortable with a D neck.

First off, unless you are playing Guitar, I can't see how you can play Orchestral works with 4 fingers in the lower positions and not kill your hands.

Second, I have found that real thin Necks make me press harder and fatigue my tendons. I am not more comfortable with a medium to slightly thicker Neck for some reason.

And third, there was no Jazz in the early 1900s. These Basses your refer to were most likely made for Students or Dance Bands. The Germanic Shop Basses used for Jazz are usually those that are not good enough for professional Orchestras. Also, many of them are so beat up that they look 50 years older than they actually are. Most of them were made after wwII unless we are looking at the blockless wonders. The older pre-wwII non blockless ones were usually made a bit better but still many of them are machine made with integral Bass bars.

I have an acoustic Jazz Duo gig tomorrow night and will use my 1814 Gilkes. That doesn't make it a 'Jazz Bass' unless it has 'Fender' written across the Scroll..

Nut height is very very important. I have seen too many Basses that were hard to play mainly because of the Nut. A client came here a few months back looking to upgrade his Bass. It was a labeled Juzek German Shop Bass. I offered to re-cut his Nut and tweak his Bridge to better evaluate his Bass as it was to be traded in towards a more expensive Bass in my collection. When I was done he was amazed. Two months later I find out he now loves that Bass better than ever and doesn't need another Bass. It just needed a better set-up. My favor cost me a sale..

So... D-Neck 41-41.5 is your vote... Sorry for the rant..

[MingusAmongUs]

I never took measurements but my Epiphone, an Eb neck, always felt like it had a significantly shorter string length to me than most other basses I came across. The distance from note to note was definitely smaller on the Epi, which kind of goes counter to what you're saying, Ken, about the D neck having a shorter string length. Though I don't doubt that your statement is correct in the general sense. But anyway, this odd configuration led to serious intonation issues whenever I picked up another instrument.
Now I (just yesterday) took delivery of an NS Cleveland. 42" length as I understand, and a D neck. The D neck will take a bit of getting used to after 10 years or so on the Eb but already it feels much more comfortable and manageable to me than the Epi.

We human beings are fairly adaptable so I will change if I must but I think I am already well sold on the 42" D neck. Anything shorter in scale would feel weird to me. I find that the Eb vs. D neck is a much easier transition to make than having to deal with different string length, and mashing my left hand Vulcan greeting into a smaller shape.

[bankerwithabass]

Slightly off topic: So how high is too high for the nut height? I read that a plain business card thickness is about right. Mine is a tad over two business card thickness. (Just a plain business card stock)

My vote is Eb 41" but then that's all I ever played. What advantages does one get out of a D neck? Should I go crazy and go out buy one? ha.

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by MingusAmongUs

I never took measurements but my Epiphone, an Eb neck, always felt like it had a significantly shorter string length to me than most other basses I came across. The distance from note to note was definitely smaller on the Epi, which kind of goes counter to what you're saying, Ken, about the D neck having a shorter string length. Though I don't doubt that your statement is correct in the general sense. But anyway, this odd configuration led to serious intonation issues whenever I picked up another instrument.
Now I (just yesterday) took delivery of an NS Cleveland. 42" length as I understand, and a D neck. The D neck will take a bit of getting used to after 10 years or so on the Eb but already it feels much more comfortable and manageable to me than the Epi.

We human beings are fairly adaptable so I will change if I must but I think I am already well sold on the 42" D neck. Anything shorter in scale would feel weird to me. I find that the Eb vs. D neck is a much easier transition to make than having to deal with different string length, and mashing my left hand Vulcan greeting into a smaller shape.

If the Bass with a D-Neck gets a longer Neck going to an Eb it will have a longer string length. If you change the Eb-Neck to a shorted D-Neck, it will have a shorter string length. You cannot compare two different Basses. The Eb makes THAT Bass longer than if it had a D-Neck! Only THAT Bass and not compared to a different Bass!

My Hart Bass in restoration has an Eb-Neck and almost a 42" String length. I was about to have Arnold graft a shorter Neck to make it a D-Neck at the heel which in turn would shorten it to maybe under 41". Since the Neck itself is beautiful, the Eb-Neck plays great with the higher shoulders and the sound is fantastic I decided to leave the Neck as-is not to mention saving a few grand in the process!

I hope this makes it more clear now?

[MingusAmongUs]

Originally Posted by KSB - Ken Smith

I hope this makes it more clear now?

Yup, gotcha.

[1st Bass]

So, Ken;

This raises a question with which I have fumbled around in my mind for some time:

The bass I just completed (only one so far) had an E-flat neck...it also has a fairly short string length, neck, etc-- but a long body. (I am not at home right now, so I can't give specifics...)-- if I wanted to make another one just like it, but with a D neck, would I have to make the neck shorter still? or move the bridge further down? or what?

Somehow I find that whole question a little confusing to think about.
Thanks,

Chet

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by 1st Bass

So, Ken;

This raises a question with which I have fumbled around in my mind for some time:

The bass I just completed (only one so far) had an E-flat neck...it also has a fairly short string length, neck, etc-- but a long body. (I am not at home right now, so I can't give specifics...)-- if I wanted to make another one just like it, but with a D neck, would I have to make the neck shorter still? or move the bridge further down? or what?

Somehow I find that whole question a little confusing to think about.
Thanks,

Chet

I yield to the gentlemen from NY namely Arnold and Jeff. They are the masters at this. You would probably have to move the FFs down for the string length but make sure the F# is reachable on the G-string with the 4th finger. Find a Bass with a D-neck and 41-41.5" and take its measurements!

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by bankerwithabass

Slightly off topic: So how high is too high for the nut height? I read that a plain business card thickness is about right. Mine is a tad over two business card thickness. (Just a plain business card stock)

My vote is Eb 41" but then that's all I ever played. What advantages does one get out of a D neck? Should I go crazy and go out buy one? ha.

I prefer one Card height or less. Sometimes on the E or A 1-2 Cards but that also depends on the amount of Camber in the Fingerboard as well as the string tension of the Bass not to mention Bridge height.

Now we are talking set-up and not length or neck stop.

On the Camber issue I prefer 1-2mm from Nut to end of Fingerboard. On the string height about 4-8mm G-E on average. I have used lower and higher and have used 1 or 1.5mm per string in progression. If the Bass is made and set-up just right with optimum components, you can usually get the exact set-up you need. If not, you are trying to match a Bridge or Nut to an existing fingerboard so you have to accept some variation of your dream action!.. Who said 'action'?

[lhoward]

Originally Posted by KSB - Ken Smith

What is your favorite String length and why?

The average is 41" - 42" but many Basses fall under and over especially older Basses and some smaller ones.

Also, what is your favorite Neck/Heel stop, D or Eb?

Moving the Bridge up or down by the F-notch area does affect this stop as well.

There are three basses I routinely play, an old S8 Kay I purchased as a young lad in 1966, a 7/8 (no label) that I bought in 1983 from an ex-symphonic player who said his dad built the bass 50 years earlier (his name was Paul Lewis and although I didn't think of it at the time, I've not been able to confirm/deny if he was related to the Lewis' that owned Wm Lewis & Son). I also have a 3/4 bass, that was one of two that were my father's, which has an Italian label (Enrico Robella, Milano 1930) but the finish looks more German than Italian.

I never really gave much attention to string length. If I liked the sound of the bass and how it felt, then I usually adjusted to the instrument. Over the years, I've used up to four instruments during the same period of time, switching off from one to another over the course of gigs. My point is that I found doing that made it much easier to switch instruments without much concern; its also made sitting-it much easier whenever that situation would come up. The 7/8 string length is 43 1/2 inches while the others are pretty much at 41 1/2 inches.

The necks on all the instruments are different. The 7/8 is between an Eb and E, but much closer to E. The Robella bass is an Eb and the Kay is a D neck. Each bridge is centered on the respective f-notch. Again, if I prefer the instrument's sound and feel, I adjust to the bass 'cause it surely won't adjust to me. Just as a remark, I have average-sized hands, but the scale length on the 7/8 really isn't an issue regarding position. But I'd be willing to guess that most bassists of average physical characteristics probably prefer a D-neck.

Lloyd Howard

[Matthew Tucker]

Chet you can get a D neck from an Eb neck either by

- changing the string length to fit the neck length (heel to chin) by moving bridge, adjusting the neck mortise, longer heel etc, or

- changing neck length (heel to chin) to fit the string length.

Your D point is 1/3 string length from the nut. Measure it all out, work out what measurements need to stay fixed and adjust what you can. Hope that makes sense.

[1st Bass]

Thanks, Matthew!

[anonymous12251111]

Originally Posted by KSB - Ken Smith

First off, unless you are playing Guitar, I can't see how you can play Orchestral works with 4 fingers in the lower positions and not kiss your hands.

Second, I have found that real thin Necks make me press harder and fatigue my tendons. I am not more comfortable with a medium to slightly thicker Neck for some reason.

And third, there was no Jazz in the early 1900s. These Basses your refer to were most likely made for Students or Dance Bands. The Germanic Shop Basses used for Jazz are usually those that are not good enough for professional Orchestras. Also, many of them are so beat up that they look 50 years older than they actually are. Most of them were made after wwII unless we are looking at the blockless wonders. The older pre-wwII non blockless ones were usually made a bit better but still many of them are machine made with integral Bass bars.

I have an acoustic Jazz Duo gig tomorrow night and will use my 1814 Gilkes. That doesn't make it a 'Jazz Bass' unless it has 'Fender' written across the Scroll..

Nut height is very very important. I have seen too many Basses that were hard to play mainly because of the Nut. A client came here a few months back looking to upgrade his Bass. It was a labeled Juzek German Shop Bass. I offered to re-cut his Nut and tweak his Bridge to better evaluate his Bass as it was to be traded in towards a more expensive Bass in my collection. When I was done he was amazed. Two months later I find out he now loves that Bass better than ever and doesn't need another Bass. It just needed a better set-up. My favor cost me a sale..

So... D-Neck 41-41.5 is your vote... Sorry for the rant..

Four finger technique has nothing to do with hand size, it involves proper and accurate pivoting with a relaxed and move-able thumb.

Ideally in the lower "money" positions I stick to standard fingerings, but I use my third finger all over the board and am able to use extended fingerings (1 semitone per finger) while pivotting in any position on a bass.

Ken, that was kind of a harsh statement about circa 1900 flat-backs with Eb necks. Not everyone can afford a Gilkes, and there are many professionals that settle for much lower quality instruments.

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Calvin Marks

Four finger technique has nothing to do with hand size, it involves proper and accurate pivoting with a relaxed and move-able thumb.

Ideally in the lower "money" positions I stick to standard fingerings, but I use my third finger all over the board and am able to use extended fingerings (1 semitone per finger) while pivotting in any position on a bass.

Ken, that was kind of a harsh statement about circa 1900 flat-backs with Eb necks. Not everyone can afford a Gilkes, and there are many professionals that settle for much lower quality instruments.

I've found that most jazz basses from circa 1900 have an Eb neck, I really feel lost with it, and I don't feel that I could ever really go back and forth. I'm very comfortable with a D neck.

Well, my comment was mainly to clarify what a Bass used by Jazz players is that may be form Germany in the 1900's. The statement wasn't intended to insult anyones financial ability. I was just making a point about Basses now used for Jazz and what they may have originally been made for use-wise.

On the 4-finger or 3rd finger use, I see what you mean with the Pivot. I thought you trying it like a guitar without the pivot. Also, I meant 'kill' your hand not 'kiss' your hand. I fixed the typo above.